Adam speaks with businessman, coach and author Bill Courtney about Perseverance. Check it out!
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The Gavel Podcast - Ep 8 - Perseverance with Bill Courtney (Mississippi)
[Intro Music]
0:00:38.7 Adam Girtz: Hello everyone, welcome to The Gavel Podcast. My name is Adam, and it is just me, this month, I almost said week, we are a monthly podcast. So we are kind of going through transitions in the podcast. Drew has actually left headquarters for a new position, we're very excited for him. So in the meantime, we're kind of shifting things around, we've got a new director of communications, Christopher Brenton. And I've actually taken over Christopher's position as Director of Chapter Services, so a lot of fun and exciting things going on at headquarters. Thank you to everyone who reached out to wish me well on the new position, I really appreciate it.
0:01:26.6 Adam Girtz: But that being said, we do plan on continuing the podcast, it's difficult sometimes to stick to a monthly format for a new endeavor, but we're going to do our best to do that. So I guess without much more ado here, some further ado. I interviewed Bill Courtney this month, and I'm very excited about that. This was a wonderful conversation. Brother Bill is a true conversationalist and a true artist when it comes to public speaking. He's got a great gift, as well as a deep knowledge on how to form team bonds, and how to develop as a person, so a lot of great knowledge there. And I think I was able to barely scratch the surface here with Bill on his deep knowledge and all of that. So now, without further ado, no further ado, we are going to dive into our interview on perseverance with Brother Bill Courtney.
[Transition Music]
0:03:01.2 Adam Girtz: Okay hello everyone. We are here with Bill Courtney, Brother Bill Courtney welcome to the Gavel Podcast, great to have you here.
0:03:08.7 Bill Courtney: Great to be with you.
0:03:10.4 Adam Girtz: Wonderful. So today, we're talking about perseverance, as we dive in, Bill, would you just care to introduce yourself and give us your Sigma Nu story?
0:03:24.4 Bill Courtney: Yeah, sure. I'm Bill Courtney. I graduated from Ole Miss in '90, I was Epsilon-Xi, still pretty involved on the alumni side over there. I'd speak at College of Chapters for national once a year. Which honestly, I'm honored to do and really enjoy seeing the rising Commanders and the eager faces and watching, watching how they mature through that process. And I was one of the founders of Sigma Nu Charity Bowl when I was at Ole Miss and Lieutenant Commander of the chapter there, and just the chapters meant a lot to me in my life. Both as what it meant to me as I was growing up as a young man. And the principals and tenants and basic fundamentals that I learned as a Sigma Nu that I still hold dear to my heart today, so I am a very proud snake from Ole Miss Epsilon Xi.
0:04:28.0 Adam Girtz: Awesome, I'm sure we have any listeners at Epsilon Xi, they know you well and would be excited to hear about it. So as I mentioned, Bill, we're going to be talking about perseverance and having been to a couple of College of Chapters and having heard your story you tell there, I think you were the first name that came to mind when we started talking about this topic and who we'd like to interview for it. So I guess, what does perseverance mean to you? That would be my first question.
0:05:06.5 Bill Courtney: You can be very basic and just say, sticking to a goal, not being deterred by barriers, that form in the way of you achieving a particular goal or mission. And I think that's right, that's what that is, but I think more importantly, really is when you look yourself in the mirror every morning, do you know, and it really doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, but do you know that you're doing everything you can within your power to achieve your goals? So really the measurables, in my opinion, to being, to persevering is not necessarily what other people's goals are for you, but what your own goals are for you.
0:06:05.9 Adam Girtz: So almost persevering through your self-doubt or your barriers you put up for yourself?
0:06:11.9 Bill Courtney: Yeah, I mean, look, if you don't have self-doubt in any major thing you're trying to accomplish, you're either a narcissist or an idiot, alright. [chuckle]
0:06:24.0 Bill Courtney: And the problem is a lot of people have this machismo where they don't want to admit self-doubt, we all have it. The most successful people in the world have self-doubt, they have misgivings, they have concerns, they have stress, they have worry, they have all of those things. And so part of persevering is knowing how to manage all of that internal stuff, and so you can have a boss or a manager or a coach or whatever that sets goals for you and a mission, and how you persevere through the obstacles and barriers that come up, then achieving that mission is one thing, and that could be measurable and you can be held to account by someone you answer to for persevering on getting to that mission, but that's really not what it's about to me.
0:07:13.4 Bill Courtney: Again, it's about, when it's just you and you. You and the mirror. You laying in the bed, looking up the ceiling at night, the true measure of perseverance, in my opinion is, do you know in the face of all of that, those misgivings and everything you have going on inside of you, do you know you're doing the most you can do, and at the end of the day, if you're doing the most you can do and you're doing all you can to persevere and attaining a goal, really what... External measurements are of your success, don't matter.
0:07:50.4 Adam Girtz: Wow absolutely. And it strikes me that that's almost... It's useful universally, right? Whether it's truly, like you are running a marathon, right? Like that is truly you versus you, as opposed to a competitive sport or the business right, you are facing external factors, but it's how you personally deal with those things.
0:08:16.2 Bill Courtney: Well, that's right, but there's a flip side to it too Adam, which is this, you also may be checking all the boxes, and the external measures of your perseverance and your achievement of a particular goal or mission, the people externally that are measuring that, you may check all the boxes and everybody thinks you're great, but when you're looking in the mirror, was that a glide for you, was that easy, could you have done more. So, I mean, it's not only a self-appraisement of, am I doing all I can even if others think I'm falling short ? It's also, am I doing all I can even if others think I'm achieving, but I could have done more. Are you squeezing everything out of yourself, are you persevering despite any obstacles, but are you also persevering despite any external measure of success, are you doing all you can do and the only person that really knows that is you.
0:09:16.7 Adam Girtz: Yeah, everyone around me is looking at me and telling me how great I am, but have I actually pushed myself to where I can go? Have I persevered through. Interesting. I like that. So I guess this sounds like something you've kind of thought about. What impact has this had on your life or how has this formed your personal mantras?
0:09:39.1 Bill Courtney: Well, I mean grew I up with a lot of self-doubt. I'm fat and red-headed, you can't imagine what it's like to have to get a date like that. It's just terrible. I grew up... My dad left home when I was 4 years old, my mom was married and divorced five times, my mom's fourth husband shot at me down a hallway with a 38-caliber pistol. The first time I ever saw the campus at Ole Miss, I was 17 years old, and it was the day I checked into my dorm because I didn't have any money to come visit the school. I went to Ole Miss because that's where I got a full scholarship. So I arrived on this campus with all these people my age. I'm driving a 72 white Caprice Classic. My friends called it the road commode. You could peel back the carpet and the passenger seat and see through the floor board, it was a piece of crap, and I show up to Ole Miss, wearing the best clothes I could afford, and driving a piece of crap, and I'm looking around at all these people driving around 3 series BMWs and having plenty of money to go out, back then you could drink at 18.
0:10:52.6 Bill Courtney: So everybody is freshman, we're going out to the bars and wearing really nice clothes and having money to just do what... I mean, you get a lot of self-doubt when you go through just a social shock like that and then, it's you know do I even belong here, and how do I assimilate and fit in? And then you get into Greek life and it's the same thing. And so all I'm saying is, that I put on a good front. I was a good athlete, I was a fun dude, I like to have a good time, my grades were good, and most people would have thought I was doing just fine, but I was looking myself in the mirror in that dorm room going, "Oh my gosh, how am I going to handle all this."
0:11:43.4 Bill Courtney: This is you know... So what I'm saying is, is how you persevere when you have all of the barrier... And at that time in my life, the barriers were my own self-doubt about will I fit. And how do you overcome those? And are you overcoming those? And then in 2001, I started a manufacturing business with $17,000 on a wing and a prayer, and there was tons of self-doubt and 11 days after I opened the doors to my business and spent every dime I had was 9/11, and the economy shut down, and I thought I was going broke and then the housing crisis in 2000... All I'm saying is, there's a lot of people out there look successful or look like they have the world whooped, but they have had all kinds of obstacles to overcome, all kinds of doubt, all kinds of stress all kinds of... And the measure of the success of any organization or any person is how they were able to persevere through those times, anybody can be a champ when everything is going great, it's how do you handle the tough times? How do you persevere? And so I would argue that the ability to persevere is tantamount to any level of any personal organization success.
0:13:10.5 Adam Girtz: Do you feel that perseverance is something that you can develop and build up and something that stacks over time? Is it a muscle? Can you train it over time like that? Or going through adversity, does that allow you to overcome more?
0:13:23.5 Bill Courtney: That's funny because I've been asked that a lot about leadership, "Are leaders born or grown?" And the answer is yes. And people... There's a lot of nature versus nurture, is it innate, is it learned, all of that. I think perseverance is one of those few fundamentals that anybody can persevere if you got it... If you're willing to get right between the ears. Ironically enough, I don't know when this airs, but Simone Biles just dropped out of the Olympics.
0:14:00.0 Adam Girtz: Yeah. That is... We're right in the middle of Olympic season right now. Yeah.
0:14:05.0 Bill Courtney: And I don't pretend to know anything about what's going on in her world and so I'm not going to throw rocks, but I'm also not going to herald her as a hero. I don't know enough, but I will say it's something that's an interesting metaphor for a lot of what's going on in society today. She dropped out, she says because she had to deal with her own mental health issues and maybe that's... Maybe persevering in her own life is much more important to her than persevering for the Olympic Team and so that's how she's dealing with it. And so what I'm saying to you, what I started is, there's a lot of people throwing rocks at her for dumping out. There's a lot of people praising her for taking care of her mental health. Who knows who's right? I'll tell you who knows who's right and there's only one person, Simone Biles knows who's right.
0:14:56.2 Adam Girtz: Yeah.
0:14:56.4 Bill Courtney: So whatever she's dealing with in her life, God bless her, I hope she gets it right, but at the end of the day, Simone Biles only needs to answer to Simone Biles and what's going on between her ears. And so the answer is yes, I think anybody can develop a level of perseverance, but all I'm saying is that's a very personal thing. Are you doing the best you can to overcome your obstacles? Because for me, I couldn't get my fat ass over a vault. Simone Biles can do it blindfolded. But I've had a lot of trauma in my life, so I'm able to get through some mental stuff probably a little better than some others are and Simone Biles' barrier to that may be greater than mine. So again, how you persevere and what your real obstacles are that you overcome and how you deal with it I think is a very personal thing, but as long as you're willing to be tough between the ears, I think anybody can learn to persevere.
0:16:00.0 Adam Girtz: That's I think a very apt example that you bring up in Simone Biles because she... Like you said earlier, all those external factors, everybody is looking at you and trying to see how you stack up. You could argue she's probably got the most people looking at her and expecting the most out of her out of probably anybody on the planet right now, the gold medalist golden child of the Olympics, and for her to take that step back and truly look in the mirror and say, "Hey, I need to do this for myself. I need to persevere the thing that I'm going through right now," as opposed to the team or whoever else, but...
0:16:40.4 Bill Courtney: Yeah, yeah. There's a school of thought, "Well, she's let down the United States, she's let down the Olympic team, she's done this, she bowed out, whatever." That may be true or there's other people who are saying, "I applaud her for putting her mental health first. And God knows what she dealt with if she was in that pull of people that dealt with the god-awful things that some of the trainers and doctors are accused of doing, and she's a hero for dealing with that and getting her mental health right." All I'm saying is, I don't know which one of those is true and neither do you and neither does the press and neither does anybody else. Simone Biles does.
0:17:16.9 Bill Courtney: So all I'm saying metaphorically is if you look at that, each of us, everybody listening needs to think about perseverance as a very personal thing. Are you doing the best you can to overcome, to erase barriers, to overcome obstacles, to be the best you can in any mission or initiative you're involved in? And if you are, roll. And if you're not, work on it. You've got to get strong, you've got to get some intestinal fortitude and get strong between the ears, but anybody can do that. Anybody has the ability to do that. The question was, "Is it built into you or learned?" I think anybody can learn to handle their own business if they're willing to be honest with themselves in the mirror, take a true self-appraisal of who they are and what they're doing as it pertains to whatever mission or initiative they're on and then to handle their business. And like I said, I'm not calling Simone Biles a hero or I'm not throwing rocks at her because I have no idea what that situation is, but that metaphorically we should all look at and apply to our own situations.
0:18:29.0 Adam Girtz: Definitely. Lessons to be learned. So you're speaking of lessons to be learned here, our audience is Sigma Nu, both active members and alumni. So I'd love to just relate this concept back to your active chapters. So let's compare two chapters. So one that has leaders and members who have done the work and developed this perseverance, they have it. And one chapter that really doesn't, and doesn't have leaders that have that quality. What are some of the major differences in outcome that we're going to see, between those two chapters?
0:19:07.4 Bill Courtney: I think it's pretty obvious. You see not just Sigma Nu chapters, but you see chapters and campuses across the country, every year, that have some kind of incident where they're put on probation or they're, God forbid, kicked off campus or whatever, and that's a direct reflection of the leadership. One of the things... One of my favorite mantras is, "The greatest measure of the success of a leader is the actions of the followers." And if the chapter is running amuck and breaking rules and doing stupid stuff and getting put on probation, I think that's a direct reflection of the level of leadership. The flipside is, if the chapter is making its grades, involved in campus, sure, they're having parties and having fun, but they're not breaking rules and they're not risking their chapters' existence on campus and everything, it's probably got really good leadership and not just student leadership, not just exec counsel, but probably really good leadership at the alumni level.
0:20:16.4 Bill Courtney: And if you have a house, a housing corp level and all of that and so... But what does that boil down to is, there's crossroads. There's always... You know that old saying, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Well, you can't do that. And oftentimes, the hardest route is the most correct route and the easiest route is the route that leads you to damnation and that again, is perseverance. Are you willing, as a commander or lieutenant commander or part of exec or an alumni advisor or just a junior or senior or older, more mature member of your fraternity, are you willing to do the right thing and persevere through the difficulties of a bunch of people saying, "Oh, let's go do this. It won't be that big a deal," when you know in your mind's eye you're about to lead your chapter into really bad troubles. And that's what leadership and leaderships have to persevere, oftentimes, against the popular sentiment because the unpopular sentiment is the right sentiment, many times.
0:21:40.8 Adam Girtz: So then how can a leader... If a leader recognizes, "Hey, I'm headed in the right direction, but I'm having trouble getting my followers to follow me in that direction," how can a leader foster that sense of perseverance in their team or that sense of, "Hey, we need to choose that harder right over the easier wrong?"
0:22:02.8 Bill Courtney: Well, I think three ways. One, by example, and that's cliche, but it's true. You lead by example. I think everybody's heard that and knows that, but you lead by example. The second thing is, regardless of what led to things that may not be going right and regardless of who has done what it's taken to do the things that are going right, the greatest leaders always give credit to the followers when things go well and take the heat when things go bad. They don't point fingers when things go bad and they do point fingers when things go well. So the greatest leaders of our time always take the heat when things go bad and they always give credit to the followers when things go right. And so, that fosters a level of trust between the followers and the leaders. "You're not going to leave me hanging out to dry, you're going to give me credit." So that's very important, I think.
0:23:00.9 Bill Courtney: And the third thing is motive. Followers will... Or members of a chapter will always look to exec, and is exec holding the positions of commander, lieutenant commander, treasurer or secretary, chaplain, all those positions, are they doing that because they want to put something on their resume, that makes them look really good for their next job interview or are they doing that because they really want that chapter to be the very best chapter it can be on campus and they want the members of their chapter to have a great four years of experience? The motive matters. If you give credit where credit's due, take the heat when there's heat, if you lead by example and if you're motivated to be a leader in an organization such as a business, a church group, a family or a fraternity, if you're motivated to be the leader in that, simply so the people that are members of the organization you lead are going to have a better experience or a better life or be raised up through that organization's success, if you're motivated by that, I think if you do those three things, you got a fighting chance.
0:24:23.3 Bill Courtney: But if your motives are selfish and if you're constantly pointing fingers when things go wrong, but you're constantly taking the praise when things go right and you talk a lot of smack about what you're supposed to do, but you don't do it in your own life, I think you're going to have an organization that'll fall apart.
0:24:40.8 Adam Girtz: Absolutely. And I'm struck also by where you're coming from, with that. That applies to not just your president, your commander, that applies to members that are even just getting into the organization. You can lead without having a position of leadership.
0:25:00.9 Bill Courtney: Brother, if you're a junior, you don't have to have a job on exec to be a leader to some pledges or some newly initiated kids.
0:25:10.9 Adam Girtz: Yeah.
0:25:11.9 Bill Courtney: You don't need a title to be a leader. In fact, some of the best leaders of our time don't have the title and it's again, motive. Do you want to be a leader because the title makes you a big man on campus or do you want to be a leader because you actually want to have some measure of positive effect on another person's life? So it's... You don't have to be anointed to take those three tenets of leadership and employ them in your life and make some positive effect on another person's life. And oftentimes, that requires sometimes, a less popular group of decisions that you might have to make, but those popular decisions are the right decisions. Listen, there's a thing in our head called a conscience. The only difference in us and a cow is our opposable thumb and our conscience. We're warm-blooded, we have the same things going on, we have an opposable thumb, so we can pick stuff up, we don't have hooves, but we have a conscience. And I believe with everything I am... Adam, have you ever done something or had something happened and your immediate response was, "Gosh, I knew I shouldn't have done that."
0:26:26.8 Adam Girtz: Oh, yeah. Yes.
0:26:27.8 Bill Courtney: Alright. Well, what happened was, your brain gave you the right answer, but your ego overrides your brain and led you down the wrong path. And when everything went bad, you immediately thought, "Man, I knew I should have done that." Okay, so here's the thing. Just listen to your conscience. Listen to the things you've been taught, listen to your fundamentals, listen to your tenets. Persevere over that sometimes popular, but often times nagging thing that's drawing you down the wrong path, and don't ever allow yourself to be in a bad situation and think, "Oh gosh, I knew I should have done that." Because if you say that to yourself, what you've done is, you've let your ego override your conscience and you've reduced yourself to a cow.
0:27:21.3 Adam Girtz: Wow, wow. Great, great lessons for everybody here and definitely giving me some stuff to think about, and it's interesting because I came at this interview and I was like, "Okay, perseverance, how to get through the tough stuff, right, and then get back to the easy stuff." It's almost opposite. I appreciate the spin that you've kind of put on it here, where it's you are persevering through the temptation to give in to the easier stuff when things get hard.
0:27:57.4 Bill Courtney: That's right, that's it. And I appreciate you calling it a spin. I don't really think it's a spin. I think that's it.
0:28:05.5 Adam Girtz: Yeah, yeah, I love it. Bill, thank you so much for being on. Before we started recording, you've mentioned your project that you're working on. Is there anything you'd like to plug here for our viewers?
0:28:20.4 Bill Courtney: Well, I appreciate it, but there's a group of podcasts coming out. They're going to be called 20 for 20, which are 20 stories starting on September 11th, on the 20th anniversary of 9/11. It will be 20 consecutive podcast stories of 20 people who were at Ground Zero and what their life was like that day, and what their lives have been since that day over the remaining 20 years of life. And they're often redemptive, redeeming, amazing, heroic, courageous stories, as well as some really heartbreaking ones. And some stories that the heartbreak didn't start until 10 or 15 years later, because there's a story for instance, of a guy who... Speaking about perseverance, who was a just a... He was a welder, and he worked eight hours a day, and then eight hours a day, after working, he would go to Ground Zero because he had the skill set and he would cut up metal and stuff and just help with removal. A beam fell on his foot and cut half his foot off and because he was doing it as a volunteer, no one covered him. And he almost lost his house because of the medical bills, and no one stepped up for him.
0:29:37.2 Bill Courtney: And because he thought that was sick, as well as all the people getting leukemia and the people that have died, he started a foundation, and he now provides medical insurance for those who don't have it, that got sick as a result of their volunteer work down there. That's just one of them. So 20 for 20 stories, for the 20th anniversary remembrance of 9/11, and you'll see it advertised. It's going to be a fairly well-produced show and you guys ought to tune in. It's good because it'll remind us of that day, and it's a day we should never forget, much like Pearl Harbor and some of those other unfortunate times in our history that we always remember. 9/11 can never be a day we forget, but it will also put a lot of it in perspective for the people that are on the ground and tell some very heroic, redemptive stories as well.
0:30:29.7 Adam Girtz: Awesome. Well, very much looking forward to hearing those stories. It's 20 for 20?
0:30:34.6 Bill Courtney: 20 for 20. It's about the 20th anniversary remembrance of 9/11, and it'll start on 9/11.
0:30:42.0 Adam Girtz: Okay. Well, excellent. I'll make sure the link to that podcast will be in our episode notes here, as well as...
0:30:49.9 Bill Courtney: Super. Thanks, I appreciate that.
0:30:51.6 Adam Girtz: Just search 20 for 20 wherever you get your podcasts. I've always wanted to say that. I'm a huge podcast fan so to be able to kind of do those podcasty things. Oh man, love it.
0:31:04.7 Bill Courtney: Just remember the name Niels Jorgensen.
0:31:08.5 Adam Girtz: Yes.
0:31:09.1 Bill Courtney: He will be a focus of those and I think you'll enjoy it.
0:31:14.1 Adam Girtz: Okay, thank you. Well, Brother Bill, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
0:31:19.2 Bill Courtney: Adam, it's been awesome, being with you, it really has. And congratulations on this podcast, and I hope you continue to grow your viewership. I think it's valuable.
0:31:29.2 Adam Girtz: Thank you, I appreciate that. Well, we'll see you at College Chapters.
[chuckle]
0:31:32.1 Bill Courtney: Sounds good.
0:31:35.6 Adam Girtz: Alright, man.
0:31:42.1 Bill Courtney: See you.
[Transition Music]
0:32:02.2 Adam Girtz: Alright, thank you again, to Brother Bill Courtney, for sitting down and speaking with me on perseverance. That was wonderful. I again, really appreciate Brother Bill's time, and I hope you all enjoyed it. So in the episode notes, there should be a link to the 20 for 20 podcast that Brother Bill spoke about. I'm having trouble finding it at this exact moment of recording this, so to let you behind the curtain a little bit, I will probably come back and edit the episode notes once I do have the correct link. It might not have even been posted yet. So, regardless, it comes out on September 11th, in a couple of weeks here. So by that time, if you check back, you should be able to find the link here, if not just searching for that 20 for 20, those 9/11 interview episodes. So thank you again, Brother Bill. And since I'm flying solo this week, we can't do our normal sign off, so I am taking the authority vested in me by the Gavel Podcast, to formally call this episode to a close by myself. Judge, jury, executioner. That's me. Thanks, everyone. We will talk to you soon.
[Outro Music]