It’s National Suicide Prevention Month and in this episode Adam and Christopher interview Angel Bowers the Director of Prevention Services at North Carolina State University. Angel has worked in college counseling for 20 years and brings her expertise to the Gavel Podcast as we engage in this important conversation. During the episode, Adam, Christopher, and Angel discuss best practices for collegiate members, officers, and volunteers to better understand the collegiate environment concerning mental health and how individuals can better care for themselves and others.
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The Gavel Podcast - Ep 21 - Mental Health and Suicide Prevention with Angel Bowers
[Intro Music]
0:00:42.3 Adam Girtz: Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of The Gavel Podcast. I'm Adam.
0:00:46.4 Christopher Brenton: And I'm Christopher.
0:00:48.2 Adam Girtz: The Gavel Podcast is the official podcast of Sigma Nu Fraternity, and it's a show dedicated to keeping you updated on the operations of the Legion of Honor and connecting you to the stories from our brotherhood.
0:00:57.7 Christopher Brenton: To find out more from the fraternity, you can always check out our website at sigmanu.org, you can also find us on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter @SigmaNuHQ, or by searching for Sigma Nu Fraternity.
0:01:08.9 Adam Girtz: Greetings, Christopher. Greetings, listeners. Welcome all.
0:01:13.7 Christopher Brenton: Hello, Adam. How are you doing?
0:01:14.0 Adam Girtz: To The Gavel Podcast.
0:01:14.6 Christopher Brenton: How are you doing?
0:01:16.2 Adam Girtz: I'm great, I'm wonderful, especially after our interview with Angel that we were able to record. I'm feeling very mentally healthy and well and ready to tackle all the challenges that lay before me.
0:01:33.6 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, I'm really excited to be able to share this interview with our listeners. For those of you who haven't picked up yet, Adam and I come into each semester, semester's worth of episodes, usually about six at a time, with a game plan for what we want to cover. And so we're usually looking ahead at what months are coming up, are there any specific topics that are part of a larger national conversation or relevant to the fraternity that we want to engage in? And the month of September is National Suicide Prevention Month. And this is a topic that we feel like we're seeing come up quite a bit with our chapters. There's definitely a national conversation around the mental health crisis and mental health concerns that people are experiencing. And so we wanted to find a subject matter expert who could share really helpful information with our advisors and our listeners and our collegiate members who engage with this podcast episode. And we're so excited. I am so glad we had the opportunity to get Angel Bowers, who's our guest for this episode. I've been a huge fan of hers ever since I was at NC State, and I'm really glad to get to share her with our listeners.
0:03:00.9 Adam Girtz: Yeah, and like you said, I think mental health has been something that is really in the conversation, and I think that's awesome, especially having worked with our collegiate chapters in the past few years, it is something that is on their minds and the stigma you normally, or in the past that has been associated with your mental health being perceived as weakness or anything else, is something that this generation of students is very cognizant of and pushing past. And that's really awesome to see. So we're very excited to share this interview and some of the resources and advice that Angel has for our listeners, whether they're active collegiate members or they are alumni that are involved with the chapter or just alumni in general. It's useful whether you're in school or out of school or not even yet in school, I guess. If we have any younger Sigma Nu fans out there that plan on joining someday, who knows? But yes, September is a National Suicide Prevention Month. Christopher, so you mentioned you've interacted with Angel before. Do you care to share where that this connection came from and how we were able to invite Angel on the show?
0:04:29.2 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. So most recently, back in 2016 to 2019, I had the chance to go and get my Master's in Higher Education Administration, and from that experience, got reconnected with Angel. I was aware of her from when I was an undergrad at NC State, back in 2008-2012. So it was a decade ago. And I have just been incredibly impressed with her, she's just one of those people that you can just sit and just listen to her no matter how long she speaks for, because everything that she's giving you is just so insightful and thoughtful, and I always have found that I really learn a lot when I've had the chance to attend sessions that she's done on mental health and suicide prevention. I believe I had the chance to go to a QPR, question, persuade and refer, which is a suicide prevention training that helps prepare individuals for supporting individuals in a mental health struggle to make sure they get the resources that they need to prevent a possible suicide. And I had the chance to go through that training with her, and so I knew that she was going to be a really incredible resource for our listeners. So I'm glad that we were able to get in touch with her and she was so willing to be involved in the podcast episode.
0:06:09.6 Adam Girtz: And a great voice for podcasting as well. [chuckle]
0:06:12.5 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, absolutely.
0:06:16.3 Adam Girtz: Well, that being said, let's dive into our interview with Angel.
[Transition Music]
0:06:40.4 Christopher Brenton: Hello, and welcome to our interview. I'm so excited about this one. Adam and I have had a long list of special guests that we have dreamed about having on the podcast, and our guest today is one that I have actually been really excited about and interested in having on, Angel Bowers, who is the Director of Prevention Services at NC State University, which is my alma mater. I had the opportunity to interact with her especially during my time in graduate school, when I was getting my Master's in Higher Education Administration. I had the chance to attend trainings that she put on in the mental health space, or the conversation around mental health and suicide prevention, and knowing that that is such an important topic for our audience, especially our collegiate members as well as the advisors who oversee and interact with our collegiate members as well as our alumni in general. Because mental health is an ongoing thing that we need to be mindful of and taking care of. And so having Angel on to talk about this in the month of September, which is National Mental Health Awareness Month and suicide prevention month. Definitely want to make this a timely topic for everyone who is listening to the podcast. So Angel, thank you so much for joining us today.
0:08:04.1 Angel Bowers: Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here.
0:08:07.3 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. Well, Angel, I mentioned you're the Director of Prevention Services at NC State. Would you mind giving a little bit more about who you are and your background?
0:08:15.7 Angel Bowers: Sure, absolutely. So I am currently the Director of Prevention Services, and prior to about two years ago, I was part of the counseling center staff at the university for about 15 years. So all told, going way back in time, I've worked in the university counseling for about 23 years at this point. In that time, I have worked at small private schools, I've worked at now, in NC State, which is one of the largest institutions in the Southeast. And a lot of the work that I'm currently doing is more focused on an upstream look at how can we really address distress before it becomes crisis? So what are some of the ways that we can do some early intervention with students to really think ahead because we know that we are facing many mental health challenges with college students right now that we just haven't seen before to this intensity, to this level of complicated resource needs. And so this is something that we're spending a lot of time and energy on at our university to say, How can we get out in front of this? I, many, many moons ago was a member of the Sorority and still my favorite people on the planet, I met all those moons ago.
0:09:35.6 Angel Bowers: I've always been a liaison with Greek Life Organizations since I started working in the university system, and I feel very passionately about the good that comes from the organizations, and also just the real unique opportunities there are within the spaces to help take care of each other and protect each other and help each other move through some of these very difficult times. So I'm particularly excited about being here to talk about some of those things.
0:10:06.2 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. So you touched on this a little bit, but our listeners are likely familiar with conversations in the news about an emergent mental health crisis, especially among young men. Last year, during our day of giving, we talked a lot about and encourage people to give to the Fraternity to help bolster our mental health services. A couple of years ago, the fraternity launched a mental health program called Behind Happy Faces, which was in partnership with Ross Szabo, some other national organizations have also engaged Ross in curriculum work as well. So we're definitely seeing an invested interest within the industry to support the mental health needs of our members. But of course, you're also hearing in the news evidence of students who are reporting higher levels of mental health challenges, you're hearing a lot of issues... You're hearing a lot of reports about, especially among men, young men, a crisis of mental health. So having you on to talk about this, I think it's really great that we get to lean on your experience and your perspective here. From your experience, you mentioned seeing evidence of this emergent crisis on campus. Can you talk a little bit about more about that? What are you seeing and how does it compare maybe to five or 10 years ago.
0:11:42.6 Angel Bowers: That is a wonderful question, and something that is just a constant discussion point within our offices, within the campus at large. I think that what we are seeing... Well, let me back up a little bit. I have a very unique position where I'm connected to the counseling center, and so I see what are students bringing in, what are they walking in the door? And they themselves are saying, this is my concern. But on the prevention side of the work that I do, I'm receiving referrals from faculty, staff, other students, parents, families, where they're referring their student based on concerns that they are identifying. So it's really an interesting view of the actual and then the perspective. And so some of the things that we're seeing that are very consistent across the board, is just one, just the numbers are going up, just the sheer volume of students who are seeking support or students who are being identified as needing support. So we saw about a 60% increase from last year. But what we're looking at comparison-wise is really more two years ago, we're seeing that as more of a representative year to compare this year too. But we still saw a 40% increase in the number of students seeking services and the number of referrals that are coming in.
0:13:03.2 Angel Bowers: Now, what's interesting about that is, I think, it's easy to jump to, Oh, well, that means so many more people are in crisis, or there are so many more concerns. And there is some truth in that. There's also truth in that we're decreasing the stigma around help-seeking. And so more students are seeking out resources, and we also have more particularly faculty right now who are identifying concerns with students when they get an email that says, "I'm sorry, I can't make it to class today, because I'm having mental health challenges," that faculty are actually doing something with that information now. And so that shift I see is something very positive. So I used to tell folks, don't just look at the numbers and assume that this means that things are going one direction. However, what we are seeing is that academic stress is the number one concern that students are reporting with. But what we also know is that's usually a symptom of a lot of other things that are going on.
0:14:00.0 Angel Bowers: It's very unusual to see someone who's experiencing academic stress and they don't have other concerns that are in there as far as general stress, anxiety, depression or other concerns. So aside from the academic piece, what we're really seeing is a big increase in the number of students who are struggling with anxiety. So this is beyond stress, this is beyond distress, but this is actual physical manifestations of anxiety, emotional manifestations of anxiety that are taking a significant amount of time to overcome. And so that's something that we're seeing as this shift and it's impossible to completely tease apart what the impact is of COVID, but what we do know is that they were things, the isolation that happened, the changes and how students were being taught online, the concerns about health, that's a big thing that we've seen in our students, that not only are they concerned about their family's health, but their own health. And so some of these things certainly added to the anxiety that was already there before, so we are continuing to see elevated rates in anxiety across the board. We're seeing elevated rates with depression as well. Sadly, those two things like to hang out together, quite a bit.
0:15:20.1 Angel Bowers: We're also seeing a big increase in financial stress across our students, and I think that that's something that, in my experience, it feels like the general public doesn't quite have a sense of the financial stress that can plague some college students. And I find that to be particularly true with individuals who are involved in fraternity and sorority life, that there's this assumption like, "Oh well, you pay these dues or you live in this house, or... " And there's not an understanding of just the other factors that could be at play there. And so we're seeing a lot more students who are needing to be resourced at multiple levels. So it's not just let me connect you to the Counseling Center, it's, can we support you in finding secure housing? Can we support you in finding secure food options?
0:16:08.4 Angel Bowers: And it may just be that it's something temporary, because that's certainly something that we're seeing more as this emergency experience where the student needs support around that, but I do feel like that's something that we're seeing across the board, it's not unique to certain populations, it really is across the board. And we know that any time someone's experiencing their basic needs not being met, it's going to have an impact on mental health. And then the final two things I would say there that are really shifting is grief and loss is a huge concern for our students. So the statistic that I heard for all the years when I was in my earlier work in this field, was that about a third of all college students would lose someone in their tier one, if you will, at some point while they are in school, and that's a huge number. But we saw this year, we saw a 600% increase in the referrals for grief and loss among students, 600%.
0:17:14.0 Angel Bowers: And so we're at the point with our department where we're really starting to look at this more from a community standpoint to say, if this many students are experiencing grief and loss at this level, this isn't an isolated thing, this is something that our community is feeling this loss. Our students are feeling this loss in general. And so we've been really thinking about things, trying to think about things more proactively, to think about how can we address some of these larger community concerns in a way that just doesn't continue to say this one individual goes to this one department, because we know it's much bigger than the one-on-one at this point.
0:17:51.4 Christopher Brenton: Gosh, it's staggering just to hear that 600% number. I was actually thinking, as you were talking about the academic stress piece and how you're seeing that as a significant reason for many of the students coming in and seeking those services. We've actually really started to try to tie mental health into the instruction we provide for our scholarship chairman or academic chairman when working with individual men within the chapters, recognizing the impact that that can have on academic success. I think a lot of our chapters at a rudimentary level, when they come into the position, especially if they are a new officer, they're thinking very simply. If they didn't do well in the classroom, they probably weren't studying enough. But in all actuality, there's so many factors that could be contributing to academic success, and you just outlined a significant one where if a student is experiencing the loss of a loved one, and maybe this is the first time that they've experienced that, how impactful that could be to their ability to be focused, their ability to be attentive in class, just how they're processing their emotions, and that's only one element of potential...
0:19:17.0 Christopher Brenton: Struggle you could have, your parents are going through a divorce, maybe that's something that they're experiencing for the first time. A significant break-up, maybe this is the first time that they have broken up with a significant other. Dealing with the loss of friendship as they've maybe moved away from their hometown, and friendships that they maintained in their hometowns are harder to maintain in college. So there are so many interpersonal and social implications to how those things impact a person's mental health and well-being, and then how it translates to academic success. It's really fascinating to hear that, but also, gosh, my heart goes out to all the guys who are trying to help their fellow brothers in dealing with this, while they're also dealing with it, and then not knowing how to maybe navigate the system. So I'm glad to hear that there's also some de-stigmatization going in the play as well.
0:20:19.5 Angel Bowers: Absolutely. What I would say, one of the things that really sticks out to me, and I love how you brought that together, because when we talk about academic stress, and we talk to the students and we say, "What is impacting your academic performance?" Eight out of the top 10 reasons that they give, are mental health related. And so that's something that I tell parents at parent orientation every summer, that's something I tell faculty, that's something I tell staff. Because like you said, there's this easy way to just say, "Oh, they're not studying enough. Or they're partying too much. Or they're not as smart."
0:20:54.4 Angel Bowers: There's all these... I call them cheap reasons to point to when it's really much more complicated than that. And I also really appreciate you bringing up the interpersonal piece, because something that we know is that, interpersonal challenges, primarily romantic intimate relationships, but not always, family, stress, other things, like you mentioned friendships. Those are the things that cause the highest intensity of distress. And so I think that's always an important distinction that I like to make when I'm talking to students, is like, while this may not be the number one thing we see coming in the door, it is the thing that students come in with that causes the most upset, the most stress, it can also be really linked and related to risk. And this can be true for someone who's never experienced risk factors before. So I appreciate, again, you bringing up how there are just so many things layered on top of the students experience that can be impacting all things academic as well.
0:21:57.0 Adam Girtz: Angel, so you mentioned working with the Greek Life Community in the past. So are there any unique considerations related to this mental health crisis that might relate specifically to fraternity-affiliated men?
0:22:14.0 Angel Bowers: Yes, I would say so. I think that some of the things that I think about is just the collective living situation that we have, the community living, which I see that as a strong protective factor and a strong positive, and I can see it as a challenge. And so I think any time you get a lot of people in one space, it doesn't really matter what the demographics are, but when you get younger individuals, I jokingly... I have two teenage sons myself, so I always say, when their brains haven't fully developed. That when you get folks together, and there are a lot of intense feelings, there can be a lot of stressors that are going on, like I said, particularly, right now. So some of the things that we think about is just how there's more likely to be some agitation in those situations, there's more likely to be communication misunderstandings in those situations. So those are some of the things that when I'm working with the exec teams, with the fraternities and sororities, when I'm talking to some of the advisors, that I'm thinking about, how can you proactively look at improving communication. But it's just not...
0:23:25.3 Angel Bowers: It can't be basic, because that's not a basic or... I don't like the word normal, but normal situation to be living with that many people, that close, and so how can you get out in front of some of those things. And I think that is really important just to pay attention to that intensity of emotion that comes from that space. Also, substance use concerns, and I don't think that's unique to fraternity and sorority life, I think that's something that we see across the board. I think it tends to be something that folks point to as being more of a concern. But we have seen a significant increase in the number of students in general who are using substances to self-medicate, to manage just some of the isolation, some of the loneliness they're feeling. There was also a big surge when everyone got back in person, there was this like, "Let's celebrate, let's party." That kind of thing. And that certainly led to some really damaging and really catastrophic... Things coming up in off-campus housing or other areas. And again, while I'm not saying that's completely unique to FSL, I think what we know is that when things do...
0:24:42.6 Angel Bowers: Happen connected to a fraternity, they do get more media, they do get more energy and attention. And so I also think that the organization can help protect in a lot of ways, where they can think about what are some of the things we can get out in front of? I know, for us in prevention services, we come at things from a very harm reduction focus. We're just not believers in, "Don't drink. Don't do these things." We're very focused on, "You're likely to do this, and so how can we focus on keeping you safe? And how can we teach you how to keep your brother safe?" And so I think that a lot of that work can be really foundational in an organization, to have folks who come in from that lens, where it's not the eye rolls like, "Oh, they're going to tell me not to drink." And there's a drink out of the chair or something. It's just being realistic. And it's much more palatable for folks to talk about it from a risk reduction standpoint as well.
0:25:45.5 Angel Bowers: But I also think, as I was mentioning before, the protective piece of that is they're able to identify concerns much faster. So when you're living in... There's a bed right next to you, where there's two people down the hall, and you see these people all the time, you see them at meals, you have other interactions with them, you are much more likely to be able to identify a concern. So I see that as a wonderful thing. And I think the challenge there is making sure that the person who's identifying the concern knows what they're looking for, and that they also know what the resources are that are available.
0:26:22.9 Adam Girtz: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I remember times from my own experience where... "I can tell something's off today, how you doing, buddy? Normally, you act like this, and today you're acting like that." That's, I think a really great thing for brothers to be able to do to support each other.
0:26:42.7 Christopher Brenton: So I have a question for you, this is a little... This is just something I thought about, so I apologize if I catch you off guard here. But something I've been thinking about is, there is research, especially... We have seen the North American Interfraternity Conference put out research about... Basically, fraternities and sororities reporting lower levels of mental health concerns. And that unsurprisingly, maybe tracks with some of the pieces that you just said about the socialization of fraternities and sororities having a network of friends and individuals who care about you, and maybe have a closer proximity to you, and so therefore, can be more mindful of potential concerns.
0:27:38.4 Christopher Brenton: But I also overheard a conversation... Or maybe it was a Twitter conversation, I was just reading through a thread or something like that, but it was also talking about how men are often less likely to report mental health struggle, even if they're experiencing it, and so how that could, like, how it's you have to think a little bit more, maybe critically about the data that you're seeing. Whereas, men are not reporting mental health concerns, it may initially look like a good thing, but it also could be maybe masking an underlying concern. Do you have any reactions to that? Or is that something that from a prevention services perspective, that you think about?
0:28:17.9 Angel Bowers: 100%. Yes. I think one of the things that I really try to focus on when I'm talking with men in particular, male-identified individuals, is that when we think about acceptable male emotions, usually sadness, crying, isolating, asking for help is not at the top of that list. What we really see a lot of times is that irritability, that anger, the rage sometimes, and a real pushing away. And one of the things that I'd like to highlight is that, there is a line as small as I can put my fingers together between sadness and crying and asking for help, and anger and rage and irritability. It's the exact same emotion, they just look different. And so we're much more likely to see the more aggressive or angry presentation with a male than we are otherwise. So then what happens is, those are the folks where, if you always ask the groups, I say, "If you walk into a room and someone is sad and they're bawled up on the bed, and you care about this person, what are you going to do?" And they're like, "Oh, we go to them. I would comfort them. I would... " And I say, "What if you walk in the room and someone's yelling and raging?" And they're like, "I'm running."
0:29:40.0 Angel Bowers: And so when we really think about, that the person who's raging and irritable is probably the one in the most pain, most likely. It really does give us a different perspective in thinking about, as advisors, as exec boards, as friends. How can we tap into that? Because a lot of times, it's a pretty fragile shell, if you will, and so it doesn't need a whole lot of knocking on to get in there and have some deep conversations, but it does take some persistence. And so I think that that's one of the pieces of advice that I always give folks who are working with younger men is, it usually takes about three to five times for us to revisit a topic before they take advantage of resources, or before they open up about something. So this past Friday, sadly, we lost a student at NC State, and that evening I went and met with the fraternity men on campus, and one of the things I said is, "When you all ask each other how you're doing, what do you say?" And everyone in the room said, "Fine. That's always my answer, I'm fine."
0:30:52.4 Angel Bowers: And I said, "Well, you know what my definition of fine is, feelings I never express." And I said, "So if you are sitting with fine, ask again, and then ask again. And will they think that you're annoying? Maybe. But is that the worst outcome that can come from this?" And it was really interesting... And obviously, I think the men were in a very vulnerable place, but the number of individuals who stepped up and said, "I've been in therapy." Or "I will walk you to the counseling center tomorrow." Which by the way, is the very best way to get someone connected to resources, is to physically go there with them. But "I will sit there with you and we'll call on call together."
0:31:32.6 Angel Bowers: I think that this generation is more poised to have these conversations. I think it's easy for us to continue to make assumptions that men don't want to talk about mental health, or men don't, and there's some of that, that's totally true. And I think being part of a Greek organization is a very unique opportunity to get everybody in a room and break through some of the shell, and then begin to have some of these conversations. But you're absolutely right. When we see a woman come in and seeking services, I always say on a scale of one to 10, that person is probably about a four or a five in distress. And then we see a man present, it's usually... They're like an eight or a nine, And it's much, much more difficult to get someone back to a two, when we're already at an eight or nine. So I think that's where those pieces or that early intervention come in. And it's also a lot easier sometimes for... Just the way that our culture works, the way that men have been taught about strength or fear, or weakness or other things to say, "Oh, it'll get better, it'll bounce back." And so it fits and it makes sense, and I think it's something that fraternities are uniquely positioned to decrease the stigma around help-seeking, and to move these discussions forward.
0:32:53.9 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. With that, we want... In the second part of this conversation, to focus specifically on resources and support. And so Adam and I have come up with three buckets of advice that we would love to get more information from you about. So this aligns with the three audiences that we expect may listen to this episode. And so the first is going to be general members, young collegiate men who are listening to this episode, and maybe they're not in an office or position, or just maybe they are. But just in general, what advice do you have for them in managing their own personal mental health? And maybe how they could seek out services if they're in need?
0:33:46.9 Angel Bowers: It's a fantastic question. I think that one of the pieces of basic advice that I give... Because I try to keep things simple and basic, because a lot of the good stuff is. And so I think about, what was working for you before you were here? So many of our students, particularly in fraternities, were athletes when they were in high school, or they were really involved in a lot of other things, and so that piece of their identity might shift quite a bit when they come to the university. And so really thinking about... Like a student will say, "Well, I've never experienced anxiety before, and then I get here and this happens." And I'm like, "Well, you were also working out six days a week, and it went from six to zero." So let's think about some of those things that were built into your life before, be it that you talk to your dad every night, or that you had... Like you said before, about the friend groups that you might have had before, but what are some of the things that we know work that you can bring back into the picture. And then sometimes students will say, "Well, I never really did athletics." And that's where I say... At our university, in particular, NC State, we have a brilliant wellness and recreation center.
0:35:02.8 Angel Bowers: And so I encourage folks to think about, "Try something new. Do something that you haven't done before, think outside the realm of athletics, and think more about wellness and how you can become engaged in that way." I think that in fraternity situations, there's a great opportunity to get people together and go do something, or there's the one person who's like, "I don't know how to navigate a gym." There's always going to be somebody who can go. So I think from a... How do you take care of yourself, and how do you take care of your friends standpoint, it's like inviting people to come into that space, some of those spaces that might feel a little bit more vulnerable, for sure. I definitely feel like, just creating spaces where people can just be, is very, very important. My own therapist gave me a great sentence last week, she said, "Angel, we have to keep going from people doing to people being." And I was just like, "Yes, that is so true." And just creating those spaces. And so... Sadly, when I was with a group of fraternity men Friday night, we were there for a very, very sad reason, and the space created intimacy, it created openness, it created conversation, it decreased the stigma around help seeking.
0:36:19.0 Angel Bowers: So thinking about how do we create spaces that aren't driven around a social activity necessarily, that aren't pressured with anything that's going on, but just that are a space to people to be together. And that's a huge piece of it as well. I'm a big believer that from a mental health standpoint, that the more you do for others, that the more that can help you. And I think about that from a philanthropy standpoint, and I know that most fraternities have a philanthropy they're involved in. But also, just getting more involved in the general campus community. It's good to have some life outside of academics and the Fraternity, to have at least one other thing that grounds you, that's just uniquely yours. I think that's a big piece of it as well. And then, as I mentioned before, just the basics, get some sleep. I know that seems so simple, and yet it is so complicated. But I'll tell folks that... If I'm working with a student and they're just at this really peak point of distress, one of the first questions I ask is, "How much sleep have you had?" And the answer is typically always very, very low.
0:37:29.3 Angel Bowers: We know that the average college student gets five hours of sleep, and that we know that the average college student needs nine hours of sleep, and so there's this huge block in there. And I think there's some things that the community can do to support that as well, like how do we help set boundaries within a house? How do we support? How do we not have every event be at 11 o'clock at night? So it really does take some culture shifting in some ways to support that from a community standpoint, but it also takes the openness to connect with the resources that are available as well.
0:38:06.0 Adam Girtz: Angel, what advice would you give to any of our collegiate listeners who are interested in supporting the mental health of their brothers and maybe new candidates, prospective members?
0:38:19.0 Angel Bowers: So I think that any time we have more information, we're in a better position to support, so I encourage folks to really think about how can they educate themselves about what the resources are on their campus, how can they potentially engage in trainings. I know at NC State we have QPR, which is a Question Persuade Refer suicide prevention training that really is a basic overview of what are some of the things to look for, how do you persuade that person to connect with resources and then getting them to the resources that are available, because I tell folks listening is outstanding, and then you have to know what to do next.
0:39:06.6 Angel Bowers: So the fact that you're already holding all of this information, that actually decreases the stigma too, because you're just like, "Oh yeah, there's this place on campus that you can go" and people are like, "Oh, this isn't a big deal? Like... " So just thinking about some of those little moments and things that you can do just to be prepared, I encourage folks to talk openly about their own mental health, be it challenges or things that have worked for them, and I know that's easier in some situations than others.
0:39:33.3 Angel Bowers: I already mentioned this before, but walking someone there physically or if they're seeing someone off-campus, riding with them or dropping them off and picking them back up, I know at NC State our counseling center's on the second floor of this big glass building, and I always say that looks like they're a million steps that first time that you come and you're walking through these scary double doors, and it really sometimes just needs that extra support and that extra warm hand-off, if you will, to make that connection, so I always encourage folks to think about how they can do that.
0:40:10.7 Angel Bowers: I think that the group and the organization, and I really put this toward the exec boards and the leadership, that they need to set an expectation that we are taking care of each other, and that it is our responsibility to check in with each other, now, it's not our responsibility to be the caregiver, but it is our responsibility to check in, it is our responsibility to know what the resources are, and so I really encourage folks too to think about, in particular, the folks who are the most high-achieving, the folks who are living up to very high expectations, the folks who appear that they're invincible and don't need anything or that they're there for everyone else, because in many situations, those are the folks who are hurting the most, and it's really easy for us to say, "Oh, they don't need anything. They're good." But truly, those are the folks you need to check in on, for sure.
0:41:06.5 Angel Bowers: And then on our campus, we have CARES, so CARES is a referral process where a student can submit a referral saying, I'm concerned about my brother, he has been... He's not going to class, he's not taking care of himself, I'm really worried. I've suggested that he seek support and he's not really interested in that, and so we have this portal where the student can be referred, and then we can just do a warm outreach to the students and say, "Hey, here are the resources. If you'd like to meet with me, then we can talk through these." A lot of times folks are more open to meeting with us because we're not working from a clinical standpoint, so it's not therapy, it's resource connection. And so I really encourage folks to look at what does your university offer in that same way, so that you can be prepared to make suggestions that are beyond counseling, because counseling is not going to be the right resource for everyone.
0:42:02.3 Angel Bowers: So knowing that you have a veterans department on campus, or a multicultural student affairs, or an African-American cultural center or other places on your campus, where you can connect folks with the identities that are most salient to them and the support that they feel like they need.
0:42:20.7 Adam Girtz: Yeah, and I think that's such a, it's such a great advantage of Greek Life is the structure and organization that it provides, right? I've seen chapters starting to create a mental health chairman whose responsibility is remaining in touch with the counseling center and all of those other resources, and so that's... It's just a consistent place where every year we remind our incoming candidates that, "Hey, if you're ever feeling stressed or if you're ever feeling mental health crises, here are the resources." And that just permanently exists with the chapter, that's such a great structural thing that they can do.
0:43:02.0 Angel Bowers: That's really brilliant. It really is. It's such a great thing.
0:43:07.0 Christopher Brenton: So Angel, the last bucket that we have are alumni and advisors, our framing here is kind of engaging and providing support for the collegiate chapter, of course, there's also alumni that are challenged with mental health, and certainly we invite you to speak into that if you want, but from an alumni advisor perspective or volunteer advisor perspective, those folks are also going to be engaged with our collegiate chapters, working with officers, interacting with general members. I imagine the advice may be similar for how members would watch out for their fellow brothers, what other... Is there any specific advice that you might give to an advisor or an alumnus who is interacting with the chapter in the scenario you've described of the recent fraternity that experienced loss at NC State, I don't know if you engaged with any advisors or alumni, but I would be curious to kind of hear what support you're seeing from them or what advice you may have given to them or like how they might factor into that as well.
0:44:20.7 Angel Bowers: Absolutely, and I think they play a huge part. I think they can play a huge part. Depending on what their level of involvement is. I think that one of the most important things that individuals who are in this role of being mentors or being the leaders, and I jokingly sometimes say the grown-ups in the situation, obviously, the fraternity men are there, but people really look up to these alumns, they look up to the other individuals, and I always encourage them to use that power for good and think about how they can offer that support. One of the best things, I think, is just them normalizing the help-seeking process and them really saying like this is a part of what we do, and just really bringing that home regularly, that it's not a reactive thing, it's not just when we experience a loss, it's not just when we have a crisis, but this is just a regular part of what we're doing, it's like we want you to make good grades, we want you to be mentally healthy. So that's a big part of that as well.
0:45:28.9 Angel Bowers: I think one of the things that I would encourage is to think outside the box more and think about how you all can bring up more flexible situations, think about like if we're in a moment where we're doing this thing and the room has shifted because everyone's exhausted and we were up late the night before, and we did these other things to be able to stop something and say, "Hey, everyone's wiped out." Like, we need to go take care of ourselves right now.
0:46:03.2 Angel Bowers: We need to be able to adjust or if we get into a space and we're talking about by-laws, let's say, and there's a lot of pain going on in the room, we need to be able to pause and adjust and say, "No, we need to take care of what's happening in this space right now." And another piece of that too, I think, is boundaries. And boundaries are... That term gets thrown around all the time, but I think it's important for the alum, it's important for advisors to model boundaries, and what I mean by that is modeling that it's okay to say, I actually can't go to this thing, that's not required because I need to get work done and really modeling that that's a positive thing, and not like a "Oh gosh," like, you shouldn't do that, or you should come along, but rewarding that because they're hearing all of these things too and saying, "Well, it's a smart decision." That's a good thing that you can do.
0:47:01.5 Angel Bowers: And also just like boundaries from the standpoint of behavior, like acceptable behavior because I think one thing that we've talked about to some degree, but students can be very impacted by what's going on around them and by what's happening in those areas, and so while we certainly are not wanting to isolate someone who's struggling, we're not wanting to, as I mentioned, that student who's irritable and angry, and we don't want to box them out, but we also do want to protect students, so we want to make sure that they are living in an environment that feels safe to them, that feels healthy to them, that feels like all the energy in the space is not going to this one person who's been identified as like the one who rages or the one... All these other things like how can we keep the community safe and healthy.
0:47:56.3 Angel Bowers: And so I always tell folks, it's so easy to focus on the one, but you gotta focus on the other 25, because those are the ones who are often really struggling with the fallout from it, so thinking about how you can offer that support as well, and then again, knowing what the resources are, I can't say enough about that. There are so many national resources, but know the resources that are closest to what you are doing and that really connect to the people that you are working with, and that takes work, it takes making phone calls, it takes having lunch with somebody, meeting somebody, but it is so worth the downpayment.
0:48:32.7 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. I know you are really going to be able to speak from NC State's perspective here, but for a volunteer who has recently gotten involved or may not be an affiliate of the chapter in which he or she is advising, if they want to find resources, where do they go, how do they get connected with those resources, is there kind of like a best practice for that?
0:49:00.3 Angel Bowers: I would say, I don't think I've ever had anyone reach out to me from an off-campus group who's supporting students that asked me for support or resources, that I've said no to. I, that actually warms my heart. I really appreciate when folks say, I'm working with students, what can I do? So I encourage them, reach out to the counseling centers on campus, reach out to the other resources that are available, talk with the students about what the resources are, so that then they can get a better idea of what they're looking for. But again, I think I would love to have someone reach out to me and say, "Hey, I'm a volunteer with this organization, and I want to know how to better support this group." That would make my day. So I encourage them to not feel limited by the fact that they're not affiliated, because at the end of the day, they are still there to support students.
0:49:50.2 Christopher Brenton: That's perfect, that's perfect. Well, Angel, we are so thankful for you spending this time with us and us being able to just kind of like take from your experience and your perspective on this. I know, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I feel the same...
0:50:09.0 Adam Girtz: As have I.
0:50:10.2 Christopher Brenton: As what you've heard Adam as well. There you go.
0:50:11.7 Adam Girtz: And thank you.
0:50:12.7 Christopher Brenton: Any closing thoughts or final suggestions before we have you depart?
0:50:19.2 Angel Bowers: I would say that as a collective, as the universe, if you will, that we are hurting right now, and that we are really struggling to recover and come back, and we don't know what that's going to look like, and we don't know where we're going, but I think that one of the best things we can do right now is think about our particular strengths, think about what it means to be a brother, think about what it means to be part of an organization, and think about what you've really committed to in that process, and hold that up in a way that not only benefits you, but benefits the people around you, and so I feel like that can relate if you are the brother, if you are the advisor, if you are the parents, if you're anyone who's involved in this situation, really supporting this collective piece, because what we know is that belonging or the lack of belonging is the thing that fuels many of the mental health challenges that our students are having right now.
0:51:14.3 Christopher Brenton: Well, Angel, thank you so much once again, we're really excited to have you on the podcast and be able to share you with our listeners.
0:51:21.7 Angel Bowers: It was so great to see you again.
0:51:22.5 Christopher Brenton: Thank you so much.
0:51:23.7 Angel Bowers: Yes.
0:51:24.8 Christopher Brenton: Absolutely. Well, take care, and hopefully, we'll maybe have you back on once again in the future.
0:51:31.6 Angel Bowers: Thank you all very much.
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0:52:03.2 Adam Girtz: All right. Welcome back, everyone. Well, Christopher, like we said up top, a really great interview, we really appreciate Angel taking some time to be with us and to share her expertise and advice for our collegiate members and our alumni volunteers specifically, but for all our listeners, so we hope you all enjoyed that interview as much as we did conducting it, so Christopher, and I think we did want to share some of the mental health resources that Sigma Nu has, as we mentioned during the interview, we've allocated a lot of resources towards mental health in the last few years, and really, I think, doubled down in the last two and a half years here, specifically with making sure that we have these mental health resources available for our members, so I think you have a quick list of our mental health resources here, would you care to share that with our listeners here?
0:53:06.9 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, so I would say two real... Or three really big resources that are coming from the Fraternity all kind of exist under this umbrella of a partnership that we launched a few years ago with Ross Szabo, who's a mental health and wellness expert. We engaged him to help create curriculum for our membership called Behind Happy Faces. Behind Happy Faces is Ross Szabo's curriculum, and then we've had it adapted and supplemented to speak to a Sigma Nu audience, but that curriculum has actually been rolled out in three different ways, so the first is going to be the collegiate member program, we actually have now embedded that within the All Chapter LEAD section of the LEAD Program, you can find that as Module D.
0:54:00.6 Christopher Brenton: And so all of the sessions that are going to be available there are going to be designed for all collegiate members at all levels of the chapter experience, they are typically shorter, like 15-25 minute in-person workshops, and then some additional add-on sessions that chapters can do. So that's a really great training to kind of structure for the entire chapter, or not training, it's just a really great, just workshop. And Angel talked about during our interview, the opportunity to create space that invites vulnerability, invites our brothers to be able to talk about these issues, this is exactly the type of program that can really help facilitate that conversation, so we strongly encourage that.
0:54:48.2 Christopher Brenton: Secondly, related, right around the time of the pandemic, beginning in early 2020, we went back to Ross Szabo and we said, "Hey, can you provide us with some additional resources to support our members in a virtual environment?" And so we ended up working with him to develop the mental health quick takes. You can... These are intended to be consumed as maybe more individually or with maybe a friend or maybe in kind of one-on-one conversation, they could also be facilitated as a group as well, but those resources are still there and are still relevant and we encourage our members to take advantage of them. And then finally, we also worked with Ross around the time of the launch of the Behind Happy Faces curriculum to develop the Advisor Resource Series.
0:55:42.8 Christopher Brenton: So this is going to be good for alumni volunteers as well as collegiate officers, and so those are about 5-10 minute modules that discuss how to better support members, and so it comes from a like, "Hey, I'm not necessarily the one having the mental health struggle but I recognize that someone in my chapter is. And so how do I as an advisor or an officer support their mental health, specifically mental distress, warning signs, making sure that they can get the support that they need?"
0:56:13.2 Christopher Brenton: So all of those resources are going to be available on their website, if you go to the show notes for this episode, we'll have everything linked there for you, and you can be able to find those resources easily. The last thing I'll promote, and we've actually promoted this on social media a couple of times, but the federal or not federal, that's the wrong word, the National...
0:56:39.3 Adam Girtz: National.
0:56:41.1 Christopher Brenton: Suicide and Crisis hotline, back in July was condensed down to just 988, so similar to how we would call 911 if we were reporting an emergency, so we needed the assistance of a police officer or a fire department, now we have a specific line 988 that we can call when we or someone we know is in distress or in crisis.
0:57:09.6 Christopher Brenton: And so we, again, promoted this on social media, so you can go and find out more information there, we'll also link more information again in the show notes, but did want to just promote that resource one more time, so people are increasingly aware of it because it can be potentially life-saving, and so we want more of our members to be aware of it in case they needed to use it.
0:57:34.6 Adam Girtz: In distress, don't wait, call 988. If that's not the tagline, it should be.
0:57:41.2 Christopher Brenton: It may be soon.
0:57:44.1 Adam Girtz: I'm going to reach out. Yeah, I'm going to reach out, I'm going to give them their next ad campaign. Well, the only other thing I wanted to plug here, Christopher, is our upcoming staff hiring deadline, so if supporting your brothers is something that has resonated with you, a great opportunity to support not just your brothers, but the General Fraternity and all of our chapters across the nation is to join the staff team as a traveling consultant. It's a great opportunity to have these types of conversations and a lot of other conversations with our active chapters across the nation, so again, our staff hiring deadline for this fall is October 15th, so you can go to sigmanu.org/employment, if that's something that you are interested in, and you can find out more there, and that will be linked in our show notes as well.
0:58:45.5 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, and we do accept applications on a rolling basis, so you don't need to submit by October 15th if you want to submit now, we'd actually encouraged that. When we're recording this, this is exactly one month out, we know that once the episode goes live we'll be a little bit closer to that deadline, but we strongly encourage people to consider the opportunity. Scott Smith, who is our Director of Leadership Development, he is going to be your best contact if you have any questions about the program, you can reach him at scott.smith@sigmanu.org. S-C-O-T-T.S-M-I-T-H@sigmanu.org.
0:59:28.2 Adam Girtz: Awesome. All right, anything else, Christopher, before we head out?
0:59:32.9 Christopher Brenton: I don't think so, this has been a great episode. I'm really excited to bring this one to our listeners.
0:59:40.2 Adam Girtz: Absolutely, me too. Well, until next time, everyone, good bye.
0:59:42.9 Christopher Brenton: Take care.
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