In this episode, Adam and Christopher step aside and invite Fred Dobry, Sigma Nu’s Director of Health and Safety, to interview Kim Novak about hazing prevention. Kim serves as the Health and Safety Officer for Pi Kappa Alpha Fraternity. She also serves as the CEO of NovakTalks, a higher education consulting firm specializing in facilitating the development of strategic prevention, intervention, and accountability initiatives. During the episode, Fred and Kim discuss the nature of hazing, its impact on fraternities and sororities, and the work needed to eliminate hazing from our organization.
The Gavel Podcast is the official podcast of Sigma Nu Fraternity, Inc. and is dedicated to keeping you updated on the operations of the Legion of Honor and connecting you to stories from our brotherhood.
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The Gavel Podcast - Ep 29 - Hazing Prevention with Fred Dobry (Indiana State) and Kim Novak
[Intro Music]
0:00:42.4 Adam Girtz: Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of The Gavel Podcast. I'm Adam.
0:00:45.8 Christopher Brenton: And I'm Christopher.
0:00:46.1 Fred Dobry: And I'm Fred.
0:00:47.0 Adam Girtz: The Gavel Podcast. Oh, and Fred. Hello, Fred. The Gavel Podcast is the official podcast of the Sigma Nu Fraternity, and it's a show dedicated to keeping you updated on the operations of the Legion of Honor and connecting you to the stories from our brotherhood.
0:01:02.3 Christopher Brenton: To find out more from the fraternity, you can always check out our website at sigmanu.org. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter @SigmaNuHQ or by searching for Sigma Nu Fraternity.
0:01:13.1 Adam Girtz: Hello, Christopher, and Hello Fred. Fred, we have a friend, a colleague, a fellow staffer on the bumpers with us today. Welcome, Fred.
0:01:22.9 Fred Dobry: Hey, thanks for having me. Great to see you fine gentlemen on this glorious afternoon. Another day, another opportunity to advance the mission of the Legion of Honor.
0:01:33.4 Adam Girtz: Yes. I love that.
0:01:35.4 Christopher Brenton: For audio listeners which is everybody, only Fred can see us because we are on video, but we do not actually release a video recording of these episodes. So you cannot see our faces, even though Fred can.
0:01:46.6 Fred Dobry: One day maybe we'll be on YouTube live stream while recording our podcast.
0:01:50.8 Adam Girtz: Well, once Headquarters builds us a studio to record the podcast, then we have like the big cave with all of the sculptures of werewolves and battle axes and cool stuff that we want in our cave for the studio, then we'll record it live and put it on.
0:02:12.4 Fred Dobry: There you go. Let's make it a priority of the Educational Foundation next campaign.
0:02:16.7 Adam Girtz: Yeah.
0:02:17.4 Fred Dobry: In the studio for the Gavel built at Headquarters. What a great... That could be... There's definitely alumni listening that would be interested in, I think throwing some money towards that.
0:02:27.9 Adam Girtz: [laughter] Yeah, let's do it. Well, yeah, it's a special day, a special episode. We've got Fred with us on the bumpers. Fred, why are you here? Why are you on the bumpers?
0:02:37.5 Fred Dobry: Well, I had this awesome opportunity to reach out to a dear friend of mine, and Hazing Prevention luminary of our field, Kim Novak. To talk to her and see if she'd be interested in talking with me and talking with our Sigma Nu audience about her work in Hazing Prevention. As well as sharing her expertise on things that our volunteers and our members and other listeners can use to be effective in trying to address and understand and be more effective in eradicating hazing, whether it's in their own chapter or in the community in which they operate. It was great. Me and Kim go back a long ways, I think over 10 years. I've been attending the Interdisciplinary Institute for Hazing Prevention, which started my relationship with Kim and it's only taken off from there.
0:03:31.3 Adam Girtz: Cool. Yeah, so guest field reporter Fred Dobry contributing to the podcast with an awesome interview. I did get to sit in on it, you won't hear my voice in the interview, but I got to listen to it and a huge fan. I've been able to see Kim speak a couple of times as well during my time as a consultant, so it's great. So very excited to have Fred here and excited that Fred was able to have this interview. Yeah, Fred any other kind of intro for him before we dive into the interview?
0:04:08.5 Fred Dobry: Yeah. So for those in our audience that may not be already familiar, so Kim has an extensive background in Student Affairs. Began with student conduct as the focus area, spent several years at Texas A&M and other campuses doing student conduct type work, then transitioned into owning her own consulting firm that focused on risk management consulting primarily for a fraternities and sororities communities, but also worked with other student communities like athletics, bands, clubs, even recreational sports. And then her most recent evolution of her career has brought her to our area or our side of things, working at Pi Kappa Alpha headquarters. She currently serves as the Health & Safety Officer for PIKE. She has a lot of experience at the campus level, now at the headquarters level, and through all of that doing work to engage in harm reduction, health and safety type curriculum development, and facilitation of workshops and conversations with students and volunteers.
0:05:13.1 Adam Girtz: Very cool. Yeah, so I guess let's just dive on into the interview then. So we'll see you all on the back end.
[Transition Music]
0:05:40.0 Fred Dobry: Well, hello everyone, and hey, Kim. I am super excited about this. This event on I think my career bucket list for quite some time. I haven't really interviewed many for a podcast when I asked to identify someone to interview on the topic of hazing prevention, you of course immediately came to mind. Our relationship goes back now, I think over 10 years, and you've been a great mentor of mine for that entire time as well as countless other professionals and students that you've impacted in your career. So thank you again for taking time to talk with us and share your expertise with our Sigma Nu podcast audience. We kind of jump right in. You kind of going back to the beginning, how did you end up becoming involved in hazing prevention work, Kim?
0:06:29.7 Kim Novak: Fred, that question causes me to really think back a long way, and by the way, I'm equally excited to be here with you today and to have this opportunity to banter with this conversation for your members. And I'm a fan of the men of Sigma Nu and of you in particular. My work really was the catalyst was came through the adjudication process, so my first formal career in higher education was in working in student conduct, and I had the misfortune to my first year out of grad school to adjudicate five of in the history of the institution where it was some of the most egregious hazing incidents they had seen to that date. I was fortunate that no students lost their lives in the process, but there were some pretty significant behaviors, and so I found myself adjudicating, holding hearings for 72 individual students that came from within those organizations. I'll always remember that number and this is a long time back. Grad school was a long time back.
0:07:43.8 Kim Novak: And as I went through the process and I listened and read and studied and evaluated, I had a lot of questions about... Really, the big question was, is suspending, expelling, probation status, is that really making an impact on this behavior? And keep in mind what I was talking about was some pretty violent behavior. And I was really confused and concerned because there were times when it almost felt as if the hazer became the martyr in the situation. And if they were separated from the institution and not all were, then they really became the martyr. And so I thought there has to be a better way to address this behavior and that's really what started my journey.
0:08:32.7 Fred Dobry: That's fascinating. And I think of kind of your career like many, you've kind of gone through different phases from being on-campus grad assistance role to kind of the growth of your career as a campus-based professional and transitioning into a consultant role and owning your own company and doing risk-management consulting for fraternities and sororities communities and other student communities all across the country to now your latest new element of your career path being now Director of Health & Safety Officer, not Director of Health & Safety. Health & Safety Officer recently adjusted title as deservingly said at Pi Kappa Alpha headquarters. Throughout all that, and now looking at what you're doing today for PIKE, what motivates you to continue working on hazing prevention?
0:09:20.9 Kim Novak: Well, I think my initial gut reaction to that might seem a little Pollyanna to some people, but I'm going to give you my gut reaction, and then if I can give you a little bit more. My gut reaction to that question, Fred, is, I believe. I just believe that we have the capacity to work towards the eradication of hazing from the new member, the rookie, the newbie, whatever language is used experience, I really believe. I don't know that I'll see that in my lifetime, but I think it's the true belief in the capacity of professionals, students, volunteers that support students to really rally around better practices and best practices in regards to bringing people into organizations, clubs, or teams.
0:10:10.3 Kim Novak: I think they have the capacity to do what's right and to make an impact, and so that's the kind of, I believe motivator. On a more tactical perspective, I think the more the concerning behavior comes to our attention, the more violent, the depth of stone vaults at Bowling Green University being probably that this situation I have been most intimately connected to in the fraternal movement, any loss of life or even... And it doesn't have to always be loss of life, but in particular, those situations Max Gruver, Timothy Piazza, Gordy. There's too many to list all, but it fires me up because I'm like, "This makes no sense that someone should give their life and pursuit of this beautiful gift called brotherhood." And the love, unconditional love, and support that comes with that for a lifetime, like why would you sacrifice? And so even in those situations when it's... The sacrifice of one's dignity or some respect, or there can be a physicality and physical harm, I think it's that a little bit of the belief of, I think we can make a difference, and a whole lot of the end goal, particularly in fraternity, because if the end goal is lifelong unconditional, loving brotherhood, this makes no sense.
0:11:43.6 Fred Dobry: That resonates in so many different ways, Kim, with me and you know this from our relationship, just how I align very much with that philosophy of just believing and the goodness of students and what they're trying to accomplish as well as just the unfortunate opportunity cost that hazing creates of. What could be and should be a powerful developmental transformational experience as it has been in our lives and so many others that are listening to this podcast that gets lost because we go a different direction and introduce some of these harmful or just unnecessary hazing practices and requirements. One of the things I enjoy when I get to pick in your brain, Kim, is how you're so well-versed and research, you also have this really great expertise in law and how it applies to higher education. And then also just practitioner and just working in facilitating conversations with students.
0:12:38.9 Fred Dobry: So this next question may be somewhat impossible to answer, but I'll still throw it out there and see what you come back with, but in your experience what do you find are the most common factors that contribute to the formation and support of hazing activities?
0:12:54.1 Kim Novak: Wow, yeah, that's a big question. I would take my experience from lived experience, I'm going to answer it from that lived experience. Some of this is supported in research and study, a lot of it but that I think I try to live on the ground in the space, and so a lot of my work is really is birthed from that what I'm experiencing and learning from students and those that support them, and then it's undergird by research and data to keep me on track. I think at its core, Fred, I really think it is a misperceived understanding of the purpose of that new member orientation perspective. Like, "Why are we doing this?" Why do we have this pause moment where we are inviting men into our organization, our chapters, and then we are giving this period of time, whether it is 72 hours, six weeks, four weeks, two weeks, where we are focusing on their development as new members?
0:14:07.3 Kim Novak: I think that one of the contributors we've strayed so far from the... And when I say we, I don't mean the practitioners, I think it's a contributor to hazing, those that choose for hazing to be part of their experience, the new member experience I think I'm strayed from the purpose of the new member orientation, and so I think we have to start there, and we can talk a little bit more maybe about that later. I think secondarily to that, in a causation of that is in the industry... And man, that's a big bold statement to make so I may get some blowback on this Fred, so I'm trying not to expose my good friend to any drama, but I think we have forgotten the ritual. I know there are organizations that are gathering right now in this period of time and revisiting the importance of ritual and the importance of that sacredness and the true purpose and values of an organization, and I think we have forgotten how to utilize that to inform what the experience of membership should be. Whether you're new or as you continue in your membership.
0:15:17.8 Kim Novak: And I don't know if it's because we're afraid to if we don't think it's cool enough or forceful enough, and we think the policy and the law are the only entry point but I think that if we can re-ground the experience in the ritual and a true meaning of our organizations, that will lend itself to having a better understanding of the purpose of the new member process. And I think to another contributor and this is really supported in the research, is this awkward belief that brotherhood comes in stages of importance, and I don't know, I'm a little naive maybe, but I just shared this with a group of men this weekend.
0:16:00.6 Kim Novak: I said, here's the reality, I asked them to give me the name of that guy, who's that guy in your fraternity that you just think so much of like I think of Durwood Owen if I was him. He's a giant in the industry. Could be Broad Beachem if I'm a guy from Sigma Nu or one of the great volunteers you have, and I said, "Here's the reality, the reverence and respect of the individuals who work for your organization is not the same as your brotherhood relationship for your brothers who work for your organization."
0:16:34.2 Kim Novak: The reverence and respect for the men who volunteer for their organization is not the same as the brotherhood in the organization because I fundamentally believe that when you're a new member, you're a new member and that once you experience that ritual and the intimacy of the message in that ritual, that you are equal in the brotherhood, and that hierarchy is not in the relationship, a brother-to-brother hierarchy comes in the relationship of organizational structure. So a senior in a chapter, as we... I am kind of focusing this, I hope that's okay, mostly our fraternity hazing, has no more importance in the brotherhood than a second-semester initiate in the construct of the brotherhood, does he have some lessons you can teach? Yes. Does have a little more experience? Yes. But man, when it comes to that brotherhood, there should be no hierarchy, so I think the hierarchical perspective plays into that power differential, and people think they have to lord that power somehow.
0:17:40.0 Fred Dobry: Yeah, that's such a key point, it seems like it's so much established from, perceived or the intentional creation of a power dynamic then you have that being subject to abuse, and one of the things you've mentioned there... I've heard you speak about this before, and it's always fascinating your thoughts on this where you mentioned ritual, a vote to my mind, this conversation, we oftentimes have a chapters about traditions, and we uphold the ritual as a big element of our tradition and that being a very treasured piece of your... Becoming a member and understanding what that means, and the commitments that you make as part of membership, but I find sometimes that those that would attempt to perpetuate or support the continuation of hazing tend to do so by weaponizing traditionally say, "Well, this is how we've always done it." They should go through the same experience I went through or that our alumni have gone through. How do you respond to that when you come across it?
0:18:37.0 Kim Novak: Yeah, oh, Fred, you push the big button for me. Tradition, love tradition. And one of the ways that I try to combat that, first of all, is let's just do a little reality check. Let's do a reality check and make sure that how many PCs have gone through this process, right? I think sometimes there's a misperception. I've had the good, great pleasure to meet with many, many individuals, alumni, alumnae over the years. And they're like, I have no idea where this came from. So I think one is to check the perception that it has occurred frequently over the past. And two, for me, the real hook is tradition, and you mentioned the ritual tradition, is something that is intimately meaningful and has a almost, I hesitate to use the word spiritual, but maybe, an emotive connection to it that has such a valued meaning. And it's a valued meaning that can be embraced by anyone. It's not something that we would, of course, our rituals we don't publicly share, but they're open to any man who makes it to the place of being fully invited into the fraternity. Ritual tradition are those things that have that deep sentimental meaning that connect individuals. When I think of college students and tradition, I think of the traditions.
0:20:09.6 Kim Novak: I had the great pleasure to work at Texas A&M. And man, if you want to talk tradition, the tradition of why we don't walk on the grass. It's not because we want to make life difficult getting to class. It's because the grass we didn't walk on was connected to a war memorial, and it was out of reverence and respect. And that's why you took your hat off in the student union. And that's why if you had a final, you dropped a penny at Sully's feet and rubbed his toe because it was something that they had believed in their hearts was adding value or just giving everybody that kind of leg up and a little hope. And you know, the pennies all go to charity. Like that's tradition. Tradition is the eagle flying over a stadium. I think every student, Fred, if I asked you, like what was that tradition from your institution? There was something that you just really loved that you did. And when you go back, that's tradition. Hazing is historical behavior. It's not tradition. Hazing is a behavior that potentially has been part of a chapter or organization's history for two years, for 20 years, over a period of time. But unlike tradition, which should be sacred and it only changed when it needs to change to make sure that those experiencing it feel welcomed and included in it, historical behavior fortunately can change.
0:21:37.8 Kim Novak: We've had a lot of historical behavior in the fraternal industry. My organization, Delta Gamma, your organization, Sigma Nu, the building I'm sitting here, the men who support this building, the Pi Kappa Alpha, we've had those historical behaviors that we had to modify and change because they were no longer aligned with those things I talked about at the beginning. So the exclusion of members based on race or creed, religious belief, sexual orientation, all those historical things changed. Hazing is a historical behavior. It's not a sacred, sentimental, collectively meaningful thing, so it can change. Tradition, it's not tradition. So that's like the message I give on that one, yeah.
0:22:27.2 Fred Dobry: Yeah, that's great, and I've heard that message several times that always hits me so well and resonates. I think it's so helpful for our students and our alumni listening to the podcast to hear that and understand that because I do think that's a common challenge to countering attempts or arguments to continue or to reintroduce hazing practices and those historical behaviors, if you will, and try to argue that they are a tradition, which is not the case. You look thinking of that audience of the volunteers and chapter officers that are listening to our podcast, what and when you're working with those in PIKE and other settings through your consulting firm and other work that you do, attending conferences and all the other interactions you have with students and volunteers, what is the advice you provide them in terms of effective hazing prevention strategies to either attempt to eradicate if it is a problem currently in their chapter or community or something to prevent it from becoming an issue in the future?
0:23:31.8 Kim Novak: Yeah, when I'm working with students and those that are on the front line supporting them, I tend to start with something that's pretty basic. And so I think effective hazing prevention strategies at the immediate chapter leader level, alumni support level are one. And this is whether, like, I appreciate how you, I articulated that because I think there's really three groups we're talking to when we're talking to that audience. We have those that are hazing and don't want it to be part of the experience. So they're trying to get rid of it. Those that don't haze, but they need to keep it out of the organization. I talked to thousands and thousands of college students a year, and I have yet to encounter a chapter, a team, or an organization that has a new member or an experience like that, where they haven't acknowledged to me that someone always brings up why don't we haze if they don't haze. So, and then we have those that want to haze and maybe, I don't know, maybe they're listening to us, Fred, and they're just thinking, whatever. Like, but I just, so I kind of just want them to know, like, what they're supporting. So in the context of the prevention realm around that, I think the first place to start is to be very direct in what your philosophical belief is.
0:24:55.4 Kim Novak: And so I think one great prevention strategy is to not tell people if they're asked to do anything that makes them uncomfortable, to let someone know. Let's step into that a little deeper. I'm trying to keep this pretty basic for like our chapter leaders in particular. It's saying, if you really don't want your members, new members, members, new officers, whomever to experience hazing, then let's not talk about uncomfortableness. Let's talk about if you're asked to do anything that places you in a position of feeling humiliated, degraded, demoralized, or potentially harmed, you got to let us know, because we don't want that to be part of your experience. Secondary, who's us? Who do you let know? You're the individual that's working with the candidates or the associates or the new members. What's their role? What role are the volunteers playing? What are their options for taking something forward to make sure something occurs? I think you got to start there if you don't want it to be part of the group. If it currently, if you're in that stage of, listen, some things have happened in the past, same direct message, humiliate, degrade, demoralize, potentially harm.
0:26:07.9 Kim Novak: And here are some specific things we're talking about. In the past, or maybe don't in the past, because then they may want to chase the past. If there have been behaviors in our organization that we do not have a place in our organization, in our chapter. So with that in mind, if someone asks you, insert behavior, that's not supposed to be part of this experience. So I think a great simple prevention strategy is being very direct. I think a secondary, I'm not going to give you the whole list, but I think if I had to, I would start there. And then I think another great prevention strategy is, if hazing is part of the chapter and we want to remove it, let's back up and ask ourselves, what are we trying to accomplish? And why is hazing part of the chapter? Is it because we think our alumni want it and we want them to feel connected? Is it because we think it's a tradition and it's really historical? Is it because we don't know what else to do? Is it because we don't know how to establish some meaningfulness to this joining of our organization so we need guidance? Because then you'll get to prevention because you can answer the question, if that's the causation, our motivation is this, then what needs to change? Well, maybe we need to have a dialogue with our alumni.
0:27:31.0 Kim Novak: I've sat in those spaces and seen the tears roll on the face of a power alumni at a major fraternity and sorority community in the SEC because he heard his brothers say, we want to love the fraternity like our advisor does and we want to have the connection that he has. And he tears and he said, you think I have that connection because I was hazed? And they said, well, you've talked about your... You joked with us about the hazing. And he was... So I think that was the answer. Then there's an illustration of that prevention strategy. Oh, what needs to change? Maybe our understanding of the expectations of our alumni. And if you got a different answer, then maybe what needs to change is your alumni support network. I think those are the strategies. One, be very direct and speak to what you want and what you don't want. Empower individuals to have a way to take action that's real and reasonable. And just ask the questions, why is this happening? And then you can figure out, okay, so what needs to change so it doesn't happen. I don't know if that's too lofty. I don't know if that's specific enough.
0:28:48.8 Fred Dobry: Well, Neil, that's such a helpful framework. And we so often want to try to just go to some box that we can pull solutions from and just say, this will work here. It's not as unfortunately as crystal clear as that or as simple as that. We're working with human behavior and we're imperfect and we're confusing and we don't make sense sometimes. So there's all sorts of other variables and really you need to pull back and start from that. What's motivating the problem behaviors, that problem analysis language that you and I are very familiar with. But starting with that and understanding what's the motivation, what is causing the support for these types of behaviors or what has been causing the challenges with our new member experience in the past and developing your strategies to combat that. I think it's such an important framework and a great thought process for our members and our volunteers to use to be more effective in addressing it. Because like you talked about at the beginning, I do feel and it's Pollyanna and I'm okay with that, that our students really don't want to create a harmful experience, especially for their newest members that they've recruited, they want to join their brotherhood and unfortunately they are misguided sometimes.
0:30:00.0 Fred Dobry: And what they believe is beneficial versus what is not. And I think that sometimes is just a result of not thinking through what they're doing, what they're asking their new members to participate in. W.
0:30:14.3 Kim Novak: Well, and Fred, you know what's interesting about that is what Tim Marcell, Dr. Marcell from Cornell University clinical psychologist, kind of looked at this behavior with us and its motivation and opportunity. So if we figure out the motivation and then pretty tactical in the opportunity realm, I've learned some great stuff from undergraduate men. Opportunity, if an opportunity is a contributor, then if hazing is happening at our new member retreat, then let's not give everybody the opportunity to be at the new member retreat. Let's rethink it and have the right people there and focus on the new members. If we have a handful of brothers who are... We love them, they pay their debt, they do their service hours, they come to chapter, but oh, they don't understand this, no hazing, then opportunity, let's not give them the opportunity to be with our new members. So we're just going to tell the new members, Hey, you know that great story that I learned from those men from that chapter, they just wrote the phone numbers on the board and said, put these numbers on your phone to the new members and they said, well, how do we label them? And they said, well, just put block and then block them.
0:31:20.6 Kim Novak: Because these are some young alumni and some members who don't come around a lot and somehow they made it through the membership review in this particular chapter and yeah, they're going to haze you. So don't take a call from them, don't go to their place, they're not trying to mentor you or give you a new opportunity and just don't, let's remove the opportunity. We're never going to write that kind of stuff in our risk management guides at the organization level but it's empowering us to live in the space there and pray and say, hey, this might work for us. So I think that motivation and opportunity talk are the way to go.
0:32:02.3 Fred Dobry: That's great and one of the things that I knew I wanted to make sure to hit while we had each other because I think it influences some of that idea of motivation. One of the things that is happening at the state level regarding motivation to hopefully combat movement towards hazing is recent adoption of new anti-hazing legislation across many states. As I mentioned before, you dabble in higher ed law and you're one of the smartest people I know when it comes to interpreting law and understanding how it will actually work in its application at the campus level. So I wanted to give just an opportunity to get some of your thoughts or takeaways from what you've seen on the state legislation front and anything else you're seeing on the legal side of things.
0:32:47.3 Kim Novak: Yeah, well, I think and I hope I'm always known this way is I know I'm not an attorney and I'm also not that chapter brother who's a pre-law student who thinks they're attorney. I know my limitations. You know, one, I think one of my biggest takeaways and I would want this to be a takeaway for your members and those listening and others, Fred, is hear the real message. The real message is that acceptance and tolerance for this behavior is diminishing rapidly. It haze as in a concept the word hazing has never had a positive connotation. I'm a big freak on the entomology of words. I like to study the history of words. Back in the 1535, hazing, haze has always had a negative connotation. So it's never been an acceptable positive behavior, ever. It has been an accepted behavior in law and policy because it was in the mid early '80s when we really started to write university policy about hazing and now we have the laws. If the state doesn't have a law, they're working to get a law. I'm excited about the men in Wyoming that are testifying in front of the state legislature about the hazing law, the students in New Mexico that are saying we need a law and we want the students that are pushing to be part of the drafting of that law.
0:34:14.6 Kim Novak: But the key message is we're done. And so what we're going to do is that in the realm of our possibility, we're going to either criminalize it where we haven't, we are going to describe consequence for it, we're going to elevate our messaging from misdemeanor to felony in some states. Some states it's just become criminal and it's still the key message is we're done, we're done. And within the realm of possibility of the state legislature, we're going to take steps to message that. Because the secondary component of most of those laws, as with the federal law, that when things find their way to a place where we can push legislation through, the REACH Act will pass. And that will be a message from the federal government similar to the message we received around sexual violence and harassment with the Title IX legislation that something has to be done. And we are going to call the players to the table. Now, in the federal law, the players that are really calling to the table are colleges and universities. In the state laws, colleges, universities, national, international organizations, and the individuals are being called out based on the layers of those pieces of legislation.
0:35:34.4 Kim Novak: So I think that's the number one takeaway. I think the number two takeaway is that within the context of most of those laws, they're not only saying don't haze because we know law and policy is not enough. They're also saying invest in helping those that you are responsible for, whether they be fraternity men, sorority women, athletes, people, people, the students in your community to learn how to stop and prevent this behavior. So the legislation, most of them have that little layer in it that you have to be doing some prevention work. So second takeaway being that they're not just saying thou shalt not. They're saying, and you have to make it easy to not. And I think that's why it's so important to pay attention. Do I think state laws are going to stop hazing? No, but they are a tool in the toolbox that will help us along the spectrum.
0:36:32.8 Fred Dobry: Yeah, one other element within this multi-layer kind of reality that our chapters and our members live in and work within and experience within that will hopefully contribute to the long-term goals. Yeah, seeing reduction of hazing. And as I said, when I first became director of risk reduction to my boss, Brad, when he was interviewing me, my goal was to achieve our founder's vision of a hazing-free fraternity experience by the time I'm done at St. Renee, which may again be Pollyanna, but these are all type of efforts and improvements. And when you look back to where we are today of where we were 40 years ago, we have made a lot of progress in a lot of areas when it comes to harmful behaviors, including hazing prevention. We obviously have a lot of work to do, and there's certainly way too many tragedies still happening and each one of those is a reminder that we have significant work left to do, but I do find continued momentum, I'm seeing the progress. Even if progress is in my time being on some new staff for 15 years, the conversation we're having with students is different than it was when I first started 15 years ago, which is great.
0:37:42.0 Fred Dobry: One of the things I wanted to make sure before we wrapped up, just give you an opportunity to share, we've got officers, volunteers, many of which as they experience this interview and think about what's going on in their chapter, maybe already know or maybe realize that we've got some stuff we need to tackle in terms of how we treat our new members and the culture around our new member program and hazing and the embrace of hazing potentially within a new member program, what would be the... And you've got an officer or volunteer, it's motivated, they want to tackle this problem, it just seems so immense, they don't know where to begin, what advice would you give someone in that kind of position as far as the one or two steps they could take to begin addressing that problem.
0:38:27.7 Kim Novak: Yeah, so I appreciate you gave me the context of somebody who wants to change right, because that's so critical sometimes we say, come up with alternative activities that only works if people want to change, but I wouldn't start there, I would start with an analysis with a really simple analysis of one, what is the activity that we're concerned about and that we perceive could be hazing. If we're not sure, and I think we gotta give space for that Fred. We have to give the little space for... I'm not sure, this old school mentality of if you have to ask it probably is, or... We gotta move away from that. So first, validate, and then ask yourself this question of what is it we're trying to accomplish? Would this be with this particular component of our new member experience or officer experience, because we know this can move past the new member period or member experience. And one is, I'm going to use the term that, that some fraternity men in the southwest taught me years ago, is it righteous? Is what we're trying to accomplish in alignment with what the purpose of this experience is supposed to be? Is it in alignment with the meaning and the principles and values of the brotherhood that we're welcoming these men into, and if not, then let's not waste any more time on it, let's just figure out a way to, Okay, we're going to put this over here. That's not going to happen.
0:39:54.8 Kim Novak: If it has some meaningful purpose that is developmental in contributing to that experience and the way it should be, then let's ask the question, can it be modified? What do we need to do different? In my mind, Fred, that's we don't have to cancel the new member retreat because we know hazing happens at it. We just need to re-conceptualize it and ask what does that hazing look of a new member retreat and when is it happening and how is it happening? And how can we rethink this experience so that that one motivation, let's talk about the purpose of that retreat and two, the opportunity for it don't exist, or at least are minimized, and then I think if it's not possible, then hold on to the intended outcome, and then you can start to evaluate, well, what else could we do that would have meaning to get to this purpose?
0:40:48.6 Kim Novak: And I think our volunteer and alumni are a great resource for those types of things. I think peers in the brotherhood, whether it be inter-fraternal peers or peers in the brotherhood of Sigma Nu, I'm a big fan of connecting chapter leaders who have found their way through hazing in their chapter with those that are just starting that journey because you can learn some pretty practical principles that we would never think of, but I think that's where if you're really in that space, don't just say we're going to stop, but ask those questions first, and then as you are communicating to the brotherhood that these are the reasons these things are no longer going to exist, appeal to the three buckets of brotherhood and my my the same buckets, existing college administrators in organizational stats all over in my circle of people that I get to engage with. Some people respond to the law, so let's talk about policy and liability and what's happening to chapters that are hazing.
0:41:55.8 Kim Novak: Two, let's appeal to the human dignity component and have a real conversation about the harms. Here's a great quick entry point, I'm going to throw this little tip at you and let's hope this one doesn't end up on the cutting room floor, because I think it's great. Mental health. Big hook right now. We're so... Right, it's great. Our students, the people we work with want to support each other's mental health. Well, you can't be pro-hazing and be pro-mental health support, because the secondary consequences of having historically called The Hidden Harms are triggers for imbalanced mental health, so maybe that's how you get the chapter to understand why we're not going to continue something, because you have the epiphany that putting people in this anxious stress-induced environment that wasn't really adding value was also contributing potentially to unbalance mental health, so we have the law, the policy, the consequence, and the human component, and I think if you approach it in that regard, that you're going to tap into the core of your chapter. Research has told us for a long time, Fred, the majority of college students do not think hazing adds value to their experience, so that's I think how you capitalize on it.
0:43:14.7 Fred Dobry: Yeah, speaking to that research piece, because that other research finding we see repeated over and over and over again with research whether it's hazing or in other fields is the strongest attitude... No predictor regarding hazing is the perceived support from your peers for that hazing, and so that reality that actually the majority are against the hazing, but we perceive that that's not the case, and that becomes a motivating factor to support hazing. It's just kind of like mind-blowing.
0:43:45.9 Kim Novak: Yeah. So much, there's a lot.
0:43:47.1 Fred Dobry: Yeah, absolutely. One thing I would add as a shameless plug, if you're looking at one step that you could take is consider attending the Interdisciplinary Institute for Hazing Prevention, which I have the honor of serving on the faculty with Kim. Kim is our Dean, if you will, for that institute so if you liked what you heard in today's podcast, you want to hear from other people that are also similar hazing prevention experts, and learn about how we can use science and public health science and research to inform our hazing prevention work that institute is what I'd strongly encourage you to consider attending is hazingprevention.institute is the website address, and I'll look to our producer, let us know if you can put that on the description and our various podcast platforms, but either way hazingprevention.institute. We're having it held virtually this summer, Interdisciplinary Institute for Hazing Prevention. Four different sessions in July, could be a great first step for you, if this is something of interest, you could tune in to explore how we can be more effective in what we're doing. With that, Kim, any last comments before we wrap up today? And thank you again for your time today. It was as fun and fascinating as I knew it would be.
0:44:58.1 Kim Novak: Well, Fred, thank you and thank you to the men of Sigma Nu for the opportunity. Closing thoughts. If you don't know where to start, start having a conversation about the reason your organization founded the power of the anti-hazing component to the founding of Sigma Nu can only be fully owned by Sigma Nu. No one else has that as firmly rooted in their founding story as your fraternity, so if you can't get to the more complex conversations, spend a little time talking about that and see where that takes you.
0:45:31.0 Fred Dobry: That's great, thanks so much, Kim. I really appreciate it.
0:45:35.5 Kim Novak: Thank you.
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0:46:05.4 Adam Girtz: Alright. Hello and welcome back everyone. Fred, excellent, excellent interview. Really appreciate you doing that. You got a gift, man. I thought you did really well.
0:46:16.4 Fred Dobry: Literally that was like recording. Just a normal conversation between Kim and I. I've re-lived that conversation, but going back to my first time hanging out with her at the Hazing Prevention Institute at Lehigh University, I think it was in '09, crashing in her dorm room and just going deep on hazing prevention, me in my new role and just trying to pull out of her all the expertise and advice that she could give. It was like re-living that conversation through that interview, it was great.
0:46:45.4 Adam Girtz: Yeah, there's some titans in the industry, it looks like.
0:46:49.0 Fred Dobry: For her, yes, for certain. I am not at that level by any means, but it was great to get to hang out with her.
0:46:55.5 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, I think for me, it's a leadership consulting, getting to travel to FRMT and listen to her speak at FRMT, I guess... Fred, correct me, if that's right, is that insurance collective?
0:47:04.2 Fred Dobry: Yes, that's right. Yeah.
0:47:09.3 Christopher Brenton: But getting the chance to hear her, it's always an incredible opportunity, I learned so much, so I'm really glad that our listeners get to... We can share that wisdom with our listeners today.
0:47:20.1 Adam Girtz: Yeah, and we've mentioned it a little bit in the interview, but really makes me think about like, hey, we have a mission, we're a mission-driven organization, to a certain extent, and anti-hazing and hazing prevention is part of that mission. So to share this information with our listeners, I think is really valuable, and if you're listening to this and if you can share this with your home chapter with... If you're an alumnus, share it with the actives. If you're an active, share it with your brothers, this is important stuff and can really help us move forward in that mission, so to that end as well Fred, did you have any resources to share? I know we have a whole plethora of anti-hazing and hazing prevention materials on our website. Would you care to share a summary of what we've got available for our members.
0:48:22.3 Fred Dobry: Yeah. Two things, one, speaking of what you had mentioned there Adam, Kim in responding that last question said, if nothing else, if you're struggling, you don't have quite an understanding of what your first step or next step should be, just try to take on this challenge within your own chapter in your community, especially when thinking about in your own chapter, go back to the reason we were found in the first place, go back to what created this fraternity, what sparked the motivation of our founders to form Sigma Nu of creating a truly hazing-free fraternity experience.
0:48:57.3 Fred Dobry: We still work to do to that vision, so try to go back to that, if you're really struggling in trying to identify that first step. Number two, sigmanu.org/antihazing, that will be a great starting point for you. It'll take you to our central hub that you can then use to then explore all the various hazing prevention resources on our website, whether it's facilitating a workshop with your members to understand what is defined as hazing as well as alternatives and different approaches to ensure we achieve what we're not meaning to achieve through our candidate education period, but do so in a way that's productive, valuable, and hazing-free to very specific best practice examples from other chapters, things like, how to define expectations for big brothers, how to execute a lead phase one program within a 6, 8, 10, or 12-week and education program, and a whole host of additional resources, that members and volunteers will find helpful in ensuring their candidate program and their anti-hazing efforts within their own chapter in a community are effective.
0:50:01.7 Christopher Brenton: And we mention this every episode, but all of that is going to be linked in our show notes. We'll continue to include not only the links that Fred referenced sigmanu.org/antihazing, but then also some additional references that weren't mentioned in the episode specifically, but will be of help and assistance to our volunteers and chapter officers who are doing this work.
0:50:24.3 Adam Girtz: Absolutely, I see a note here. We do have another exciting announcement, and very appropriate that Fred is here with us to help us make this announcement. Christopher, would you do the honors?
0:50:38.3 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, so we've talked about this in a couple of episodes so far this year, of... Of course it is now, every odd year that we have the opportunity to have a grand chapter, it's our 70th grand chapter is coming up this summer, Fred is our convention coordinator who oversees the planning and execution of this event, so Fred, if you wouldn't mind... Are you able to share any details, I know registration at the time of this recording has not launched yet, but it is about to launch, I think the web page is sigmanu.org/grandchapter, but what do our alumni and collegiate officers need to know about attending grand chapter?
0:51:19.7 Fred Dobry: Well, Chris, for a way to let the viewers behind the curtain there a little bit, yes, we are not yet live as we record this, but hoping that registration will be live and all staff that are involved in the process of doing everything that can to just make sure that everything is squeaky clean and works as intended once we go live, so we want to make sure it's right, to release...
0:51:42.3 Christopher Brenton: It's called hedging, Fred.
0:51:44.1 Fred Dobry: Yes.
0:51:44.6 Christopher Brenton: It's called hedging.
0:51:45.3 Fred Dobry: Exactly, exactly. But grand chapter, it's a big deal, it is the pinnacle Sigma Nu National Experience offer through our fraternity. It is a time to renew friendships, to begin new friendships, to engage in fellowship and to celebrate how amazing our fraternity is. The accomplishments from the past two years, as well as taking on the important action of adopting a budget, electing a board, and considering potentially transformational amendments to our constitution and resolutions that can impact the fraternity in both the short and long-term, so that is my pitch, and if you have not been to grand chapter, that is where my Sigma Nu flame truly became lit as an understanding of what the national fraternity is and how this is much bigger than what I was experiencing in my own chapter at Indiana State. It is a really amazing experience. I can't wait to welcome hopefully a 600 to 700 brothers of Sigma Nu to the beautiful Fort Lauderdale, Marriott Harbor Beach Hotel. The event will be June 28th to July 2nd. If you can't make that entire date pattern work for you completely understand, there are all sorts of packages offered for our, especially alumni, attendees, and our guests to come just for the weekend, or just come for the area alumni reception or other one-off events.
0:53:06.5 Fred Dobry: We are at a resort property, so there'll be a lot of things for our family members to do while we're engaging in an important business of the grand chapter, so a lot of different ways for our members and guests to get the most out of their Sigma Nu grand chapter experience. We're really excited to bring everyone back together in person for the first time since 2018 for Grand chapter. It's going to be a great time.
0:53:27.8 Adam Girtz: Awesome, well, we're very excited. I'm excited to be out there for that. Haven't had an in-person grand chapter since DC, and I very much enjoyed myself, well, enjoyed myself and enjoyed the hard work that gets done by our staff there for that. I think it'll be a little bit easier to do the hard work when we know that there's a beach outside waiting for us afterwards.
0:53:52.6 Fred Dobry: That may make the discussions efficient on certain items. I'm sure, certain items still generate quite a lengthy debate, but some items they may hear the splashing of the ocean and think we've covered what we need to cover here. Let's go ahead and move to a vote.
0:54:08.6 Adam Girtz: Yeah, 95 degrees in the Fort Lauderdale feels a little bit better than 95 degrees in Washington DC as it was, as I remember. But anyway. Well, awesome, I think that's everything. Christopher, any other notes before we sign off here?
0:54:24.8 Christopher Brenton: I think that's it.
0:54:24.9 Adam Girtz: Alright, awesome. Fred, thank you so much for doing this interview. You're a pro. We're definitely going to be doing this again, so gear up for it in the future. Thank you for being here, Fred. We appreciate it.
0:54:36.1 Fred Dobry: I'm happy to be recorded and having conversation with any of my friends any time. So consider myself open and available whenever you guys do need it.
0:54:44.0 Adam Girtz: Alright, and then check out our Twitch where me and Fred are going to be playing Call of Duty together every Wednesday...
0:54:50.7 Fred Dobry: If I can get the controller out of my son's hands...
0:54:52.1 Adam Girtz: Yeah, just kidding.
0:54:57.0 Adam Girtz: Maybe in the future. Alright, thanks for listening everybody. And if you like the show, please share it with a brother and we will see you next month. Bye everyone.
0:55:05.8 Christopher Brenton: Take care.
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