Drew and Adam sit down with Grand Chapter Parliamentarian Dr. Tim Huerta (Cal State LA) to talk all about Grand Chapter. What is Grand Chapter? What is the difference between Jurisprudence and Resolutions? What does a Parliamentarian do? All this, and more, in this very timely episode!
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The Gavel Podcast - Ep 6 - Grand Chapter with Dr. Tim Huerta (Cal State LA)
[Intro Music]
0:00:32.2 Drew Logsdon: Hello, Adam.
0:00:33.7 Adam Girtz: Drew, hello.
0:00:35.5 Drew Logsdon: How are you doing?
0:00:36.6 Adam Girtz: I'm great man. It's beautiful here in Des Moines, Iowa. Fun fact, when my fiancé initially moved here, my goal was to just say Des Moines enough that she would eventually say it in conversation with somebody, and I think she did, and that made me laugh really hard.
0:00:57.0 Drew Logsdon: So it's Des Moines, right? That's how they pronounce it?
0:00:58.3 Adam Girtz: Yeah. Des Moines. Yeah. There's no Ss. There's no audible Ss.
0:01:04.1 Drew Logsdon: A superfluous S, we could say.
0:01:06.7 Adam Girtz: Yes, yes. And they do regularly say that, yes. [chuckle]
0:01:13.1 Drew Logsdon: Well, as you can likely hear a little bit, maybe the listeners. I have currently somewhat of a head cold that I'm coming over, and probably like many of our listeners who are afflicted with allergies, the past couple of weeks the seasons changing, summer coming into town, it has just kind of sent everything haywire, so. [chuckle]
0:01:32.9 Adam Girtz: No pun intended? Or...
0:01:35.5 Drew Logsdon: Yeah, no, yeah, exactly, yeah. [chuckle] yeah. No pun intended, everything has gone topsy turvy a little bit, so coming off a little bit of a head cold, but nothing some Claritin can't fix, so.
0:01:48.1 Adam Girtz: Yeah. Drew, you sound wonderful. You sound great.
0:01:50.4 Drew Logsdon: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I gargled some hot salt water before our recording here, so yeah, I'm in tip-top shape.
0:01:58.1 Adam Girtz: You've done the neti pot?
0:02:00.7 Drew Logsdon: I have not done a neti pot. I've seen the neti pot, I've heard of the neti pot, I have not done the neti pot. I'm not sure if I'm at that place yet. I'm not sure if I'm at that stage in the game of, "Okay, this is the next step," so hopefully not, but well, we have big news.
0:02:18.5 Adam Girtz: We do.
0:02:18.8 Drew Logsdon: In Sigma Nu world. Well, not really news, but a big thing, a huge thing, a ginormous thing happening in just a few weeks, right?
0:02:26.1 Adam Girtz: Yes. Oh yeah, we have Grand Chapter. Our first ever virtual Grand Chapter coming up here in June.
0:02:33.7 Drew Logsdon: It's going to be big. It's going to be an exciting experience, it's going to be a new experience, right? A unique experience, let's call a spade a spade. It's going to be different, it's a little different than the in-person experience, but I will say what I'm most excited about is that this is likely the most accessible Grand Chapter for a majority of our members.
0:02:55.9 Adam Girtz: Absolutely, yeah. Geographically, not bound geographically, you can join in virtually from anywhere, anywhere that there's internet access.
0:03:08.4 Drew Logsdon: Yeah. If you got a laptop, got a computer, and you got internet access, you can join. In fact, registration costs for alumni are $35 and $25 for collegiate members. So just because you register obviously doesn't mean that you get a vote guaranteed, there are certain voting delegates permitted to vote on motions and to speak to items, and those are our voting delegates, so division commanders obviously get a vote, alumni chapters each get one voting delegate, collegiate chapters each get two voting delegates. But if you want to see how the sausage is made, so to speak, if you've never been to a Grand Chapter, you want to just see this experience and feel it for a little bit, definitely register. This is the time to do it. It's virtual, it's got a low barrier to entry and you don't have to fly somewhere specifically for it, like we typically would, like we typically would love to do. We'd love to... I'm sure we'd all love to be in, looking forward in a few weeks to the sunny skies of San Diego, but alas, not the case.
0:04:14.2 Adam Girtz: This year.
0:04:15.0 Drew Logsdon: This year, yes. This year, but in two years from now, I don't even know where we're going two years from now but hopefully, I think, I'm confident, 100% confident we'll be back to normal two years from now, so we got that going on. So Grand Chapter, really cool experience. Amazing... This governance body of the fraternity, super awesome. And then with Grand Chapter, a couple of important things that we do every Grand Chapter, and one of those, which I do want to make sure we plug today, is our Chapter Eternal report. So many of our listeners are either collegiate members or alumni members, and you may know of, and unfortunately, members of our Legion of Honor who have passed away in the past two years. The past three years, I should say right, because we're kind of in the...
0:05:01.0 Adam Girtz: Since the last Grand Chapter.
0:05:03.0 Drew Logsdon: Yeah. Since the last Grand Chapter, so...
0:05:05.5 Adam Girtz: 2018.
0:05:07.5 Drew Logsdon: Yeah, so since 2018, you may know of a member who has passed away who has entered the Chapter Eternal. If you know that person, we want to know about it because we want to acknowledge that person in our Chapter Eternal report, which we do at every Grand Chapter. We commemorate, we recognize, we honor the legacies of those who have gone on to Chapter Eternal from our brotherhood. And so with that, if you have a referral if you know of somebody who fits that, or you have that news, share that with us. You can email those to todd.denson@sigmanu.org. We'll include it in the show notes as well too. And Todd is the Staff Liaison for the Chapter Eternal Committee, and he'll make sure the Committee has that information and we get those folks appropriately noted and recognized. So that's a pretty big thing.
0:05:54.8 Adam Girtz: Yeah, oh absolutely. It's a really powerful piece of Grand Chapter. One of many, but definitely something that... Those brothers, we want to make sure that we remember their legacies and honor them in that way, so absolutely, yeah, if you got that information, pass that along.
0:06:15.6 Drew Logsdon: Absolutely, yeah. We also have some news around headquarters happening right now, in fact, as of this recording, you'll hear this several days after we've recorded this little piece here, but this morning we had a little all staff virtual get together, because on June 1st... Well, yeah, June 1st, Tuesday, we welcomed three new members to our staff team.
0:06:39.5 Adam Girtz: Yeah, our new consultant class coming in, so I'm very excited there to be welcoming our brothers on to staff, new additions to the fraternal staff. So our collegiate listeners, you'll be interacting with them as we go through the late summer, early fall, and getting into the consulting season in the fall, back to in-person consulting. Can I say that yet? Are we... Has that announcement been made?
0:07:09.7 Drew Logsdon: I don't know if we've fully announced it, but I think it wouldn't be wrong to say that everything is trending in the right direction for that to be the case.
0:07:17.3 Adam Girtz: Hopeful.
0:07:18.9 Drew Logsdon: Hopeful, yes, hopeful of the bad numbers keep going downward, the good numbers keep going upward. [chuckle]
0:07:26.1 Drew Logsdon: Which are good directions. So yeah, we're getting back to our... In fact, our new consultants are back in Lexington at The Carriage House and doing their...
0:07:33.8 Adam Girtz: At The Rock.
0:07:34.2 Drew Logsdon: The Rock, man. Enjoying a beautiful, beautiful Lexington summer in the Shenandoah Valley, so just another indicator that nature is healing. The world's going back to normal.
0:07:45.5 Adam Girtz: Yes, nature is healing. [chuckle]
0:07:48.1 Drew Logsdon: Yeah, yeah, we are exiting the pandemic, so a lot of good stuff. And a couple of other final items here. Obviously, summer time is recruitment season, in fact recruitment season is all the time, but summer time is really when a lot chapters are really getting in fifth gear on their recruitment efforts. So alumni listening to this, if you know of a young man who is attending an institution where we have a chapter and he would be a good candidate for consideration, and we're not saying you have to vouch for him, you don't have to say like, "Hey, I have 100% vouched for this person." We just want to meet him, let us know about them. And so you can do that, and we'll put this in the show note link as well too, www.sigmanu.org/referral.
0:08:33.3 Drew Logsdon: And if you go to that short little URL there, it'll take you to the membership referral page and you can refer a member, and essentially we collect that information, we kick it over to the chapter that you indicate the school the student's going to, and the chapter gets a chance to reach out and say, "Hey, you were referred to us, we'd love to meet you and talk to you and get to know you a little better," but kids who went to school with maybe your kids or folks you know from community groups or church or boy scouts, or whatever you interact with, we want to meet those men.
0:09:07.3 Adam Girtz: Absolutely, that's sigmanu.org/referral, one F, three Rs.
0:09:12.6 Drew Logsdon: There we go. There we go. And then lastly, on our kind of little roundabout here, alumni fall plans, man. I put this on our notes here because I just got Western Kentucky, a week or two ago, their announcement of their homecoming and that they're going to be back to normal. Currently, they're planning to be back to normal for homecoming activities, and it made me think of... If you an alumnus listening to this, tap into your alumni chapter, see what their homecoming plans are like this... We've come a whole year of not being able to really embrace that experience of in-person brotherhood and rekindling those memories, and so reach out, and even if your alumnus who's not geographically near your home chapter, reach out to a local alumni in your area or the local chapter, and I'm sure they would welcome you with openly, brotherly arms.
0:10:06.0 Adam Girtz: Absolutely, yeah. I think that's one thing that is a common experience with all of us this year, is not taking for granted the ability to get together in person like that. So homecoming, #hoco2k21.
0:10:28.5 Drew Logsdon: It's funny, I know there are alumni I know who... It's the highlight of their year. It's this one weekend, every fall, that they get to... Because they're across the country with different jobs and everything, but it's this one weekend they've carved out where they can come together, hang out with their brothers again, and I know everyone's experience is probably similar to ours, but it's like picking up where you left off. I remember when I go back and interact with guys that I went through candidacy with or guys I was in the chapter with as an undergraduate, and we just pick it up, it doesn't matter if we haven't talked in two years, we just pick it right up where we left off. It's a really cool experience.
0:11:08.9 Adam Girtz: Absolutely, yeah. So yeah, I guess there's no link that we can give you necessarily, but for that, there will not be anything in the show notes for this, but yeah, just go on Facebook, go on the internet to check out what your school's homecoming plans are, and like you said, check in, see if the local alumni chapter in your area is going to be doing some kind of fall get-together. Yeah, absolutely.
0:11:39.1 Drew Logsdon: Well, we've got a great guest today. Speaking of Grand Chapter and big things happening, we have an outstanding guest that we interviewed today, now I will put the caveat, we interviewed this guest many months ago back in the winter, when we were trying to get our scheduling figured out. And this individual we interviewed has a very busy schedule, incredibly busy schedule, and so we wanted to jump at the right time, so this was... This interview you're about to hear... You may hear some references of an in-person Grand Chapter, because at that time we had not made a decision yet, we were kind of still waiting to see how things panned out. But regardless, it's great content and that person is none other than brother Dr. Timothy Huerta, our Grand Chapter parliamentarian from Cal State LA, our Eta Phi chapter.
0:12:23.6 Adam Girtz: Yes, absolutely. This was a super fun interview, just really cool to kind of see... Well, hear from the expert, I would dare say, the expert on Grand Chapter, how Grand Chapter works, why it is so important, what makes it unique and what makes our fraternity unique in that democratic process that we have. So yeah, and personally, I'll be going back and giving this one a listen again, just refreshing myself before Grand Chapter starts on some of that good information.
0:13:00.4 Drew Logsdon: Yeah, and Tim is... First off, Tim has a great story as well too. He went to college as a very young man, a non-traditional student, much younger than most. Tim is incredibly smart, and Tim fully understands the law of Sigma Nu. And I put two people on this little pedestal, if you will, Tim Huerta and Dwayne Dreger, who's also a former High Council member, a former parliamentarian. Brother Dreger is from our MIT chapter, Epsilon Theta. And Brother Dreger is a lawyer, patent lawyer, Tim is a doctor, at Ohio State University, in academics. And so those two folks really look at the law and think about the philosophical questions, right. What does this word mean? When we put the word "the" in this sentence, they analyze, why is that word there? What does that word imply? And how does that word impact something six pages down the road, right? And so it is really interesting to hear those guys talk, and it's great to hear in this interview, to hear Tim talk about the governance policy.
0:14:17.7 Drew Logsdon: Because I think a lot of undergraduates, and we talk about this in our interview, they come at Grand Chapter, and I think they fail sometimes, sometimes not all the time, sometimes it's... Not to say fail either, it's hard for them to conceptualize how this all works. And parliamentary procedure, the rules and order of business, these things all exist for a reason. We can't have a Grand Chapter that lasts three weeks, that's not possible. And so because of that, we have to get business done in a certain time frame, and sometimes we don't have enough time to get all the business done, but that's why we have a Grand Chapter every two years. We will consider it, we'll keep working on it, keep improving. So Tim's got some great insights, parliamentarian on the ways that all voting delegates have an impact on this fraternity and our trajectory towards excelling with honor.
0:15:10.5 Adam Girtz: Yeah, absolutely. It reminds me of, I guess, that old analogy, I guess it's like standing two inches from an elephant trying to describe an elephant. A collegiate member, you just don't quite have that perspective yet, if you've never had the opportunity to attend a Grand Chapter or to do your research on the history of the fraternity. You're looking at your collegiate experience with Sigma Nu as standing a couple of inches from an elephant trying to describe it. But Brother Dr. Tim Huerta has seen many elephants, from every angle and distance and can describe them with photo-realistic detail, so that I think would be an apt analogy for it.
0:16:01.4 Drew Logsdon: Yeah, yeah. And it's a great one, and so I think you and our alumni listeners will enjoy this as well too, but this is a great one. This is a Hall of Famer episode right here. Let's get into it.
0:16:13.6 Adam Girtz: Yeah, let's do it.
0:16:14.7 Drew Logsdon: Alright, well, we'll cut off here and we'll jump right to our interview and we'll catch you guys on the back end of this. Speak to you later.
0:16:21.0 Adam Girtz: Bye.
[transition music]
0:16:46.4 Drew Logsdon: All right excellent. Well, we are joined here for this episode today by Brother Dr. Timothy Huerta from our Cal State LA chapter, Eta Phi chapter. Brother Huerta welcome to The Gavel Podcast.
0:17:02.1 Tim Huerta: Thank you for having me.
0:17:03.1 Drew Logsdon: Excellent excellent, could you introduce yourself just real briefly for our listeners, for those few who may be unfamiliar with you.
0:17:10.5 Tim Huerta: Sure, so my name is Dr. Tim Huerta. I'm a Professor in Family and Community Medicine and Biomedical Informatics at the Ohio State University. I am also the Chief Research Information Officer of the Wexner Medical Center, which is about a $5 billion healthcare facility spanning Central Ohio. And in terms of Sigma Nu, I'm the reigning Grand Parliamentarian. I serve at the pleasure of the Regent, but I serve as the Grand Parliamentarian of the Fraternity and I have done so for several years. This is in addition to my prior work, I was a three time Vice Regent of the Fraternity. I actually started on Jurisprudence, which is the committee that concerns the creation of all law in the Fraternity as a collegiate member, and have... I am the longest-serving member of the Jurisprudence Committee empaneled, having never missed a Grand Chapter thus far, which evidently is a thing. So I was terrified that we were not going to cancel the conference because I couldn't have come given COVID and my work, and when we postponed for a year, I though this was much better.
0:18:31.0 Adam Girtz: Yeah, it wouldn't be Grand Chapter without you there.
0:18:33.7 Drew Logsdon: Yeah, well, and today's topic is all about Grand Chapter, and so we obviously are at the right fountain of knowledge in that regard so, and we've got questions lined up here on jurisprudence and resolutions and what the difference are between those two and everything, but let's dive into the very first thing here, brother Huerta, what is Grand Chapter? For our members who just got initiated just a few weeks or a few months ago, and for maybe our alumni who have never experienced it, what is this thing Grand Chapter that we do traditionally every two years?
0:19:07.4 Tim Huerta: So Grand Chapter serves as our deliberative body that is empowered to conduct the business of the general fraternity on a biennial basis, and that's a lot of technical words for we have a group of people who come together to create rules and laws that govern the fraternity once every two years. And so we have a mechanism to change policies, to hold people accountable, to elect officers, that meeting, that conclave, that Grand Chapter serves as the mechanism through which we accomplish the business of the general fraternity in the same way that a chapter meeting exists to conduct the business of a collegiate fraternity chapter.
0:19:53.8 Adam Girtz: Okay, so it's like a big chapter meeting of sorts, almost sort of like our... I guess I've always kind of internalized it as sort of our Congress, if you will, our legislative body of the fraternity, we just meet once every two years.
0:20:07.2 Tim Huerta: Indeed, and we do a lot more than just legislation, but some of the primary responsibilities of that group is to pass legislation, enact policies, elect leaders, mourn our dead, update the ritual, discuss issues related to things that have happened in the prior... In the time preceding the last Grand Chapter.
0:20:34.1 Drew Logsdon: Which is a testament to the work of parliamentarian, as I imagine, because we have to do all of that in the span of three or four days. We have a finite number of business sessions that we try to accomplish all this at, and certainly we can probably stretch that out, but really we want to fit this within this tight little window of business and we have to accomplish all of those things. So why don't you tell us what a parliamentarian does at this function?
0:21:00.2 Tim Huerta: Well, interestingly enough, I'm going to answer the first question because that's really not something a parliamentarian does. I will tell you that what we generally do is we know all the committees that have to report, and over the years, we've come up with a cadence for how committees can report in terms of who needs to report when, but we basically have a total time budget. And so the question is really, how do we manage our time together? Because it's a really expensive meeting, if you think about all the collegiate members that are flying in, all of the alumni leaders who are flying in, and if you just looked at how much we... That represents in human capital, it's a significant investment.
0:21:47.1 Tim Huerta: Every chapter has two members who attend, every alumni chapter has a member that attends, and then past Grand Officers, elected Grand Officers get votes, so they attend as well. And we're talking something along the lines of an attendance around 250 to 350 people. And if you take that and multiply that by the amount of time we spend together, that's a pretty big investment of resources. And so we want to make sure that that time goes as smooth as possible, and so one of the very first things, one of the very first committees that we have is the Rules and Orders of Business Committee, who has effectively been working to figure out how to schedule all of the different committee reports. And the very first meeting that we have, we actually agree on an agenda, we agree on rules and orders of business, we agree on rules about how we will conduct ourselves in Grand Chapter, and basically those are the ground rules we set for the rest of the Grand Chapter.
0:22:53.0 Tim Huerta: It's at that point that we begin the process of deliberating whatever it is we have to do, and we use Robert's Rules of Order as the parliamentary authority for the Grand Chapter. So we rely on Robert's Rules of Order to outline all of the rules about who gets to speak when and under what conditions and how you make a motion. And there are a couple of things that are a little bit different about motions in the context of a conference than there is in a chapter meeting. For example, committees make motions as opposed to people making motions, and the reason we do that is really about those minutes. It really is about the fact that we have so little time together that we can't spend our time with extensive deliberations on the easy parts that we could work out somewhere else. So committees are empaneled to work through and think through all of the issues that someone might bring up on the Grand Chapter floor, and I tell people, "It doesn't matter whether a motion passes or not, what matters is the nature of the discussion, and if the discussion brings up things that someone should have caught, that committee has not done its work." The committees have done their work when we can talk about the principles associated with the motion as opposed to the implementation of the motion. When we can deal with whether we should be doing something as opposed to how we should be doing something.
0:24:31.9 Tim Huerta: A lot of chapter meetings have a lot of discussions around how we're going to do something, but what you want is a committee to have already worked through the how. So that we say, "If we did it, here's the best way to do it," and our conversations then turn to, "Should we do it?" And in that respect, what we're really talking to each other about is what we believe are the reasons why we should or should not do something. And we're doing so in a respectful way.
0:25:03.4 Drew Logsdon: It sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong here, brother Huerta, I'm trying to read into this a little bit, it sounds like really that, I think sometimes folks expect a lot of drama on a legislative floor, and unfortunately I think that's influenced by what they see outside of Grand Chapter right? They see a lot of drama in other kind of legislative bodies or formats and that doesn't say that there doesn't exist the opportunity or possibility for that, but a committee brings a finished product to the table, they bring a completed car. The question is, should we or should we not buy that car like, "Hey, here's the car, here are what we thought about the doors and the paint on it and everything."
0:25:43.6 Tim Huerta: I think the fraternity has had a lot of times in it's history where we have been dramatic. And I can think of a number of policies, the Risk Reduction Policy, the Pursuit of Excellence Policy, I can think of lots of... Work hard, play hard, that is clearly in my head. There have been lots of times where we have ventured towards the dramatic. However, when we've done our job right, we're talking about whether the principle of work hard, play hard, is the principle that we should adopt. Not the, "Well, the GPA should be this way," or, "What about this limit?" Or... Someone has actually explained all of the rationale when they bring the motion to the floor so that you know that they've considered it and why they've chosen what they've chosen.
0:26:39.8 Tim Huerta: And I think in that respect, what we stay out of, or at least what I hope we stay out of is the niggling details around how we should do something, and we again, can just focus on the "Should we do something?" Should we adopt a policy? Should we adopt a... Should chapters be dry? Should LEAD be the required education program? Should we link The Rock Chapter to Pursuit of Excellence? Those discussions are the ones that are most important because once you agree on principles, then like the Federal government, you can relegate regulation to the High Council, and that is effectively our leadership between meetings. And they can dive into the details with the guidance that we create and implement plans at a far more detailed level than you would ever want to have as a discussion in the context of a Grand Chapter.
0:27:41.6 Adam Girtz: So brother Huerta I would to love just some examples and context for that member that just got initiated and is maybe not as deep in the history of the recent past of the fraternity, what are some recent developments in maybe the last three or four Grand Chapters that are still affecting our chapters today or the direction of our fraternity?
0:28:09.6 Tim Huerta: I think Pursuit of Excellence is an evolving dynamic within the context of the fraternity. If you go back to prior to Pursuit of Excellence, there was no objective standard for excellence. So the likelihood of you getting marked for a Rock chapter, for example, was very arbitrary, and it was always a surprise at Grand Chapter, whether someone would get it. It's still a surprise, don't get me wrong, because we don't tell people their scores until the moment we release the Rock Chapter Award, but now that we have objective criteria of what success looks like, everyone is held to the same standard. And I think that that has been both transformative, but we also are still dealing with the... We created a program 10 years ago where... I actually, I don't remember how long it was ago, it seems like it was more, but we created a program, and then things have happened in the intermediate time, in this interstitial spaces between Grand Chapters, and it raises this question of, should we be updating Pursuit of Excellence, should we be changing standards, should we be moving to clarify what excellence is. There has been a tremendous focus on excellence as a touchstone for our fraternity. And so as we've been measuring excellence, it's become clearer about the parts that we've missed, and so I think that that's one example of things that come back up.
0:29:55.9 Tim Huerta: One of the big examples that personally, I was... I have very strong memories about was because I'm on Grand... Because I'm on Jurisprudence, whenever someone wants to make a law, it comes to the Committee for review, and it was our policy around equality and diversity. And that process took many years to get us where we are, I don't actually think that we... I don't actually think that the collegiates, when it was passed, thought we went far enough. I actually think the collegiates wanted to go further, and there was a measured response to some of the categories that were being discussed because of ongoing legal determinations. And so we have continued to set aside pieces of our diversity approach, every Grand Chapter in the face of uncertain legal environments, and I think that that's an ongoing discussion, I wouldn't be surprised if it came up again at this Grand Chapter.
0:31:17.0 Drew Logsdon: And that's such a good point there too, is that Grand Chapters, we have more than one of them, right? And that it's sort of... I'm certain you could go into history of Grand Chapters and see the length of discourses and conversation and topics and how topics have changed and evolved in those discourses and just because the football doesn't go far enough down the field as you think it has gone down, doesn't mean it stops there, because every two years we come back and revisit it as a large collective body, as a fraternity, as a Legion of Honor. We all come together and we have a discussion about it, which brings me... And you touched upon it a little bit, Brother Huerta, so we've got... And this is a question that I always get asked from collegiate members and alumni members, but we have Jurisprudence Committee, Jurisprudence makes law.
0:32:07.0 Drew Logsdon: We have Resolutions Committee, somehow Resolutions Committee also puts out things that look very familiar to law, and so there's always a question of like, "What's the difference between... I know what Grand Chapter Committee does... Or sorry, Chapter Eternal Committee does. I know what the Virtual Committee does," but Jurisprudence and Resolutions. What are the difference between these two committees that produce the lions share of things that are voted upon at Grand Chapter?
0:32:34.8 Tim Huerta: Yeah, so I would actually add to that, Resolutions. Resolutions can be a very surprising source of direction in a Grand Chapter, normally in the grand chapter preceding it, because Resolutions will say, "Thou shalt at the next Grand chapter, do X." But resolutions have been used as powerful means of organizational change, and in fact, all three of them have the power to invoke organizational change. Where they differ is in the scope of their authority. So we are governed by a constitution called the Law of Sigma Nu. That law binds the entire fraternity, including our leadership, including the Regent, including the Executive Director. It is literally the constitution of our organization, and it spells out rights and responsibilities, power, agency, the way that we have our meetings, the way that we elect our leaders, etcetera. It is... They are governance documents, and so the Constitution deals with how we govern ourselves.
0:33:47.8 Tim Huerta: You can impose a policy on an organization that doesn't touch governance. The Pursuit of Excellence program is not in our law, it is a policy passed by the Grand Chapter through resolutions. So it's the difference between policy and law. Policy comes from Resolutions, laws come from Jurisprudence. There's wiggle room for the High Council on policies. There is no wiggle room for the High Council on the Law. There's no even wiggle room for the Grand Chapter in the law, if the Grand Chapter wants to change, wants to do something different, it must change the law first before it can enact those things.
0:34:31.9 Tim Huerta: They are the rules by which we agree to govern ourselves and that we expect others to follow, policies can be far less constrained, so that if you say, "Well, we're going to put the Pursuit of Excellence as a policy," it's the responsibility of the High Council to ensure enactment of that policy as the will of the Grand Chapter. But generally speaking, there is some wiggle room for them to change rules. There is no "Thou shalt, thou shalt not," generally in Resolutions. And so when we think about things like our Diversity and Inclusivity approach, that was passed as a resolution, because it was meant as policy to guide not only chapters but leadership as we move this process forward, as we increasingly attend to our... The challenges that the fraternity has historically faced around diversity and inclusivity, but there's no legal barriers, legal requirements, etcetera, that are imposed as a function of governance.
0:35:51.8 Drew Logsdon: Yeah, that's interesting. And so that's a good segue to my next question, brother Huerta, which I think our collegiate members are really interested in hearing is, okay, my chapter has picked me to go to a Grand Chapter, I'm excited. I've got Sigma Nu fever. We all get it right, you get it on the day you bid, you get initiated right. You go to Grand Chapter. I've got all these great ideas. Brother Huerta, how do I get my voice heard? In the right way. I feel like some guys approach, especially some brothers from chapters that probably don't use good parliamentary procedure as best as they could, and they get frustrated that my voice isn't heard, I feel like I'm stymied or what have you. How do I... I have this idea, I have this light bulb, how do I get that light bulb to where I hope to get it, Brother Huerta?
0:36:40.8 Tim Huerta: So before Grand Chapter, there will be an all call. If you have an issue, if you have an idea, it doesn't have to be well formed, it can just be a concern.
0:36:51.8 Drew Logsdon: So I don't need to write with a lawyer or write some... Craft some lengthy thing. It can just be a...
0:36:55.2 Tim Huerta: No.
0:36:56.0 Drew Logsdon: It can be a sentence.
0:37:00.0 Tim Huerta: It can be, "I'm concerned about diversity and inclusivity."
0:37:02.0 Drew Logsdon: Okay.
0:37:03.9 Tim Huerta: And then maybe you might want to tell us why. Then the committees... So it's the responsibility of the staff to collect all these and disperse them as appropriate to their governing committees. So when someone raises an issue that looks law-like it goes to Jurisprudence, but there have been times where it's come to Jurisprudence and we're like, "No, no, no, this is regulatory, you have to go to resolutions." And we'll figure out where everything needs to go. It's an open call. The only limit and the most important limit is the call ends at the start of Grand Chapter. So you can't come to Grand Chapter and throw out ideas. If you want to be an agent of change, you must be a planful agent of change, because what happens with regards to the committee is they are doing their work before Grand Chapter even gets started. Learning the... We may need to reach out to our legal counsel and we can't do that in the three days that we're there, we have to give them enough time to deal with the issue. So the more runway you give the fraternity, the better its response will be.
0:38:20.0 Tim Huerta: And by rule, we pass in that rules and order of business, a rule that says, by the close of business, the first day, we will accept no more business because we have a slate of things that have already been submitted, and so if you want your issue dealt with, you'll have to wait until next Grand Chapter. Interestingly enough, let's say you submit an issue and you do it in accordance with the rules, and nobody takes up your issue, you don't hear back from it or anything, you actually have standing to stand up at the Grand Chapter and call a point of order. Because you have followed those rules, and you have a right for your voice to be heard. It never happens. I've never seen it happen in the 30 something years that we've been doing... That I've been involved in Grand Chapters. What generally happens is that your issue will go somewhere and then you will be invited to talk about your issue with brothers.
0:39:26.1 Drew Logsdon: To advocate for it, or explain the rationale for it.
0:39:29.7 Tim Huerta: And then you may have your concerns and they may just be concerns and it is a really interesting dynamic, because it is not the job of the committee to decide whether your idea is good or not. Remember, if you go back to my original statement, it is the job of the committee to basically say, "If we agree to this, if we were going to do this, what's the best way to do it?" It's the job of the deliberative assembly, the Grand Chapter to decide whether or not we do it. So let's say you want to pass a rule that says...
0:40:04.4 Drew Logsdon: Change the colors.
0:40:06.5 Tim Huerta: Yeah, change the colors, sounds great. So you go and you have this conversation and you get to talk about why you want to change the colors. They may talk to you about why they don't think it's a good idea, but they will not prohibit you, and they will actually... Each one of these recommendations gets reported to the Grand Chapter, if you don't withdraw it. With, actually, we either support the change, we are against the change, or we have no opinion. And that is true of almost any motion that comes from a deliberative committee. And so they can forward your motion and they can say, "Well, we suggest, we urge the Grand Chapter not to approve the change in colors." And in that respect, then the Grand Chapter is making, the decision, but all of the language of that motion is set up so that if it were to pass, it would be consistent across all of the things that it needs to be consistent with. There's a lot of places where the colors are mentioned, they're mentioned in the ritual, they're mentioned in the law, they're just everywhere. So not only do you have to coordinate efforts with... Sorry, not only... That's my phone. Not only do you have to coordinate efforts with the committee you're working with, but we may need to coordinate efforts with other committees entirely, like the Ritual Committee.
0:41:54.3 Drew Logsdon: Oh yeah, yeah.
0:41:55.1 Tim Huerta: And so the legislation may say, and may end with, "And we direct the Ritual Committee at this Grand Chapter to recommend changes to... " It hands off responsibility to the next committee, which is why we can't actually take all the ideas that come at any random time, because there is this whole cadence of thing that has to be... Because we only meet once, that we have to deal with in that one meeting before we're done, because if anything that's left undone, then for the next two years, people are like, "I don't know what we're doing."
0:42:28.9 Drew Logsdon: And so that's a good point, right? And you just said it, that one thing can have... That one idea or one what have you issue, can have cascading effects across different committees and require a lot of work in the front end, that committees are working months in advance on stuff, and like you said, that's just one thing, right? There's other things, there's all these other things that need to be considered on the docket, so to speak.
0:43:00.8 Tim Huerta: Absolutely.
0:43:00.9 Adam Girtz: So I have got one last big feeling question for you. So imagining that I'm a collegian who has never attended a Grand Chapter before, and I've been chosen by my chapter to attend. Obviously, this is one of the biggest experiences you can have as a Sigma Nu is to attend Grand Chapter, especially as an active. What would you advise that that collegian do to prepare himself to get the most out of his Grand Chapter experience when he attends?
0:43:34.7 Tim Huerta: Well, first and foremost, I think you have to recognize that you are there with the voice of your chapter, but you are not going back and having discussions with your chapter. This is one of the... I see a lot of collegiates struggle with the, "I don't know what my chapter would say about this." "I'm uncertain how to decide this, I'm uncertain what to decide on behalf of my chapter because I am their representative." In this context, it is your responsibility to represent, as best you can, the voice of your chapter. And so I think that's the first thing.
0:44:18.1 Tim Huerta: The second thing is recognizing that we're building rules and laws, procedures and policies for all. One of the common components that I see people bring up is, "Well, in my chapter, we don't do it this way." And that's a very common response. But we're not talking about individual chapters, we're talking about how we're governing everything. And we're also talking about how we're going to change the way we do things. So this is the one time where, "Well, this is the way we've done it," isn't the right answer, because what we're agreeing on is potentially doing it a different way. So it's not as simple as, "This is the way we've always done it." You have to be open to thinking about how to make the organization as a whole better. And so you are representing not just the brothers in your chapter, but the brothers in your alumni chapter as well. And so I think what you have got to think through is, what are the principles that we should be espousing and advancing, in the context of this, that should inform my decision making?
0:45:37.2 Adam Girtz: Absolutely, and I think that to me is what is so wonderful about our organization and so inspiring about the history behind all of these Grand Chapters. We have been every two years coming together to push the fraternity and bend the direction of the fraternity towards our constant pursuit of excellence. And it really hit me when we were in the museum at Headquarters, looking at our founders, documents that they held in their hands and the melancholy there that, "Oh, this organization won't exist for very long, and it's a flash in the pan," but 150 years later, here we are, and look at the success that we've seen. And I think the Grand Chapter and the parliamentary procedure that we use is a huge part of that. So I think if I could give a piece of advice, attend Grand Chapter, if you can, collegiates. It's an amazing experience, and as an alumnus as well.
0:46:37.0 Drew Logsdon: Oh yeah, if you're an alumnus and you have an opportunity, if you are within four or five hour drive, just showing up for one day. It's like a... Adam and I are staff, and brother Huerta you've been at numerous Grand Chapters, so you've seen this too, right? You see the a-ha moment, right? And it's either like in the opening ritual of a Grand Chapter or, it's when a discussion happens or a committee report. But you see the a-ha moment where it clicks, what you just said Brother Huerta, is that the whole was greater than the sum of the parts, right? This isn't your chapter, this is Sigma Nu fraternity, right? And that clicks for people at different times, but you see it. You see it click for them of like, "Wow, this is more than just me and my 100 some odd brothers on my campus for this four year experience." This is so... It spans generations, it spans... We're older than many major league sports, we are one of the oldest institutions in this country. And that's an impressive thing.
0:47:42.5 Adam Girtz: Mm-hmm.
0:47:43.7 Tim Huerta: I also think that one of the things that Grand Chapter gives you that is an unintended side effect, is the long-standing relationships that bind you together with brothers, who are not from your chapter. It was at Grand Chapter that I met Dino Bozonelos and Jaime and Joe Gilman and a whole bunch of other people that I still talk to on a regular basis, right? And I'm fascinated by the fact that it's our mutual love for Sigma Nu that brings us together, and our mutual commitment to Sigma Nu that brings us together at Grand Chapter. And I see Dale Archer all the time, and we just pretend... It's almost like time hasn't passed, right?
0:48:40.5 Drew Logsdon: Yeah.
0:48:41.7 Tim Huerta: We spend our time catching up, "How are you? What's life been like for you? We should get together." And to be clear, there are brothers who I was on committees with, who I still see on a regular basis. Andrew Crane, for example. Last New Year's, a year ago, last New Year's Andrew Crane and his family, and I stayed over at the hills in San Antonio at the resort. We rented the presidential suite and we had a blast, right? To be clear, I do that, I do the same kind of things with my brothers from my chapter. And those are the kinds of relationships I've built at Grand Chapter because everybody in that group has such a passion for our shared cause. It really does bring us together.
0:49:43.9 Adam Girtz: Absolutely. I think that's such a great opportunity. Again, like we said, such a great opportunity for our members to come together from all across the country, and that's truly a massive undertaking. Okay, last question. What is your favorite Grand Chapter moment that you've been present for?
0:50:09.9 Drew Logsdon: And why is it the Rodeo in Dallas? [laughter]
0:50:13.9 Tim Huerta: No, no, no. There's lots of answers to that question, and there's the answers that you want... That I know you want to hear, and then there's the truth. [laughter]
0:50:33.1 Tim Huerta: I think that one of the things that I love about Grand Chapter and in particular, serving in leadership roles is the ability to mentor people. And the ability to talk to them, and have them come up to me and talk to me. It's not very often that... For example, a Latino is sitting up on a stage in one of the largest fraternities in the United States. And not just sitting there, but helping to control the flow of work.
0:51:16.6 Tim Huerta: I know that some of the alumni really... They will come to me and tell... I'm sorry, I feel bad saying this... Come to me and say that there's always a SmackDown moment in Parliamentary Procedure. Someone who tries to impose their will on the will of the group, and someone has to say "That's not what we're going to do. You are out of order", and I try not to play the "you are out of order" card, the "you're out of order", "you're out of order". I try not to play that card, but there's always that moment, and it's not because... I'll always go and talk to the brother afterwards to explain why it's out of order and stuff.
0:51:57.5 Drew Logsdon: Of course.
0:52:00.4 Tim Huerta: But in my mind, that's an instantiation about our commitment to the rules, our commitment to do things fair, open, honest, etcetera, and that it's not just going to be the loudest voice. And the example that I have about that is, there was a conversation about that voting member voting... Right now every chapter has two votes, right? There was a conversation at a Grand Chapter that the number of votes you get should be determined by the size of your chapter. So moving us from a senatorial model to a House of Representative model, and being able to get up there and say "Yeah, that is not the way that we will govern ourselves." That... I understood their point, I really did, but on the flip side, either we are all equal or we are not, and it can't be that some are more equal than others.
0:53:02.7 Drew Logsdon: Definitely... Well, my favorite moment was 2018 when I almost single-handedly ruined Grand Chapter by leaning back on a light switch, and that is now a public record so, awesome, that was me.
0:53:13.3 Tim Huerta: Fair enough. [chuckle]
0:53:16.4 Adam Girtz: Alright...
0:53:17.8 Tim Huerta: I want to ask...
0:53:18.9 Adam Girtz: Oh, yeah. Go ahead.
0:53:19.6 Tim Huerta: Before you go on, I want to say that there is... I actually... I will say that speaking at a Grand Chapter is difficult. And know that even for me, standing up there, speaking is difficult. I don't want to over-talk people... It's like being a chef, you just want to put the right amount of seasoning on things, you want to make sure that everyone's voice is heard, you want to make sure that we're following the rules, etcetera, but in my role in Jurisprudence two years ago, maybe it was four years ago, it was in San Diego. So it's three years ago, was it three years ago? We were dealing with the equity, diversity and inclusivity question, and we got to this point where they said, "Well, we still don't know the legal status of X," and we need to figure that out, and I just had had enough.
0:54:19.5 Tim Huerta: And I said, "We can't keep deferring the question, our lawyers tell us we can't be in the business of being... " We have to be a fraternity first. And so being the only person of color on the committee, my brothers asked me to speak to the motion and I have never, never written a speech. Never. And I still have that speech in my computer because I think it was one of the most consequential speeches I've ever given on the floor of the Grand Chapter.
0:55:00.2 Adam Girtz: Wow, powerful. Well, Dr. Brother Huerta, thank you so much for being here with us today. To be transparent, we kind of knew we were going to go over time a little bit, but we were so excited to do so and to be able to... Yeah.
0:55:15.3 Drew Logsdon: This is the one we banked... We banked our minutes from previous discussions to roll over into this one, so...
0:55:21.9 Tim Huerta: Fair enough.
0:55:22.4 Adam Girtz: We knew, but unfortunately we got to keep it tight. Definitely, we're going to follow up, like we said, we would love to have you back on again in the future on the podcast and then really dive deep on some of these topics.
0:55:33.6 Tim Huerta: Maybe after Grand Chapter. A recap.
0:55:35.5 Adam Girtz: Yeah, we'll do a recap.
0:55:36.5 Tim Huerta: Maybe during Grand Chapter.
0:55:38.8 Drew Logsdon: Yes. Live Grand Chapter.
0:55:40.2 Adam Girtz: A live... Yeah. You'll find us on Radio Row, we'll be right next to, yeah. Right next to registration.
0:55:46.9 Drew Logsdon: Yep, there we go. Well, thank you so much. So if a collegian would like to or a listener, I guess, an alumnus or member or a potential member, I guess, wanted to get in touch with you, what would be the best way for them to do that?
0:56:02.0 Tim Huerta: I am the most popular me on the internet, you put in my email address and... You put in my name and you will find me. It's Timothy Huerta. And you can actually add OSU, my email is public domain so it's timothy.huerta@osumc.edu. And I get emails from brothers all the time.
0:56:19.7 Adam Girtz: Okay, awesome. Well, we'll definitely then try to include that link in the show description as well. Thank you so much. Looking forward to hopefully seeing you at Grand Chapter San Diego. We'll meet on the beach.
0:56:32.0 Tim Huerta: I'll be there, we'll meet on the other beach.
0:56:34.0 Drew Logsdon: Yeah. There you go.
0:56:36.1 Adam Girtz: On the other beach yeah.
0:56:37.2 Drew Logsdon: Thank you Dr. Huerta.
0:56:37.5 Tim Huerta: Fair enough. Thank you, have a great day.
0:56:40.4 Adam Girtz: Awesome.
[Transition Music]
0:57:07.2 Adam Girtz: Wonderful. Wow, just a great interview. Very informative and very interesting. I just love, I'm jazzed up for Grand Chapter now. I always get excited for it, I guess the one time that I've been able to go 2018 in DC, but I'm very excited for our upcoming Grand Chapter now.
0:57:32.3 Drew Logsdon: Oh yeah, the pageantry of it. And even though we will be virtual, and so it'll be different, the pageantry and the majesty of this event isn't lost, on the Sigma... It's incredible. And Tim, brother Huerta is just outstanding. Just outstanding person, yeah, super smart. And we talked about it in the interview. We could probably spend 14 episodes dialing into brother Huerta's brain and picking things out, so yeah, it's a great time. And so again, good reminder, if you are interested in virtually attending this awesome virtual experience, that will be the first virtual time we've ever done it, definitely check at our website and you can register and it's going to be a great opportunity, so.
0:58:18.0 Adam Girtz: Yeah, definitely. Please do. Like we've said, this is the best opportunity that a lot of brothers will have to attend Grand Chapter ever, basically.
0:58:29.9 Drew Logsdon: Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that wraps us up for today. Adam, what about you?
0:58:34.0 Adam Girtz: It does.
0:58:35.3 Drew Logsdon: Alright. Well, then I'm gonna... Oh, are you?
0:58:37.0 Adam Girtz: Yeah, I'm ready to go.
0:58:38.8 Drew Logsdon: Okay. I motion to close.
0:58:40.6 Adam Girtz: I second that motion.
0:58:41.5 Drew Logsdon: Alright, all in favor. Aye.
0:58:43.6 Adam Girtz: Aye.
0:58:44.3 Drew Logsdon: Alright, we'll catch everybody in the next episode of The Gavel Podcast for season two, as we wrap this up, and we'll catch you all next time and hope many of you all listening enjoy a good Grand Chapter, we'll talk you later, bye.
0:58:56.0 Adam Girtz: We need a gavel like sound bite there just to. Here, I've got this... Closed. Adjourned.
0:59:08.6 Drew Logsdon: I didn't hear anything.
0:59:09.3 Adam Girtz: Oh. [laughter]
[Outro Music]