In this episode, Adam and Christopher interview Noah Borton (Southern Utah), President of the Association of Fraternity/Sorority Advisors. Noah is a past Sigma Nu staff member, past Division Commander, past campus advisor at Eastern Michigan University, and currently serves as the Senior Director of Educational Programs for Delta Upsilon International Fraternity. During the episode, Adam, Christopher, and Noah talk about the Association of Fraternity/Sorority Advisors, the association’s role in advancing the fraternity/sorority movement, and how we can all contribute to a better member experience within Sigma Nu.
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The Gavel Podcast - Ep 33 – Association of Fraternity/Sorority Advisors with Noah Borton (Southern Utah)
[Intro Music]
0:00:42.4 Adam Girtz: Hello and welcome to the latest episode of The Gavel Podcast. I'm Adam.
0:00:46.5 Christopher Brenton: And I'm Christopher.
0:00:47.8 Adam Girtz: The Gavel podcast is the official podcast of Sigma Nu fraternity, and it's a show dedicated to keeping you updated on the operations of the Legion of Honor, and connecting you to the stories from our brotherhood.
0:00:58.7 Christopher Brenton: To find out more from the fraternity, you can always check out our website at sigmanu.org. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at @sigmanuhq or by searching for Sigma Nu fraternity.
0:01:11.3 Adam Girtz: Christopher, hello and hello, all of our wonderful listeners. You can't tell by my voice, but I am crackling tan. I am just crispy from all of my time on the beach.
0:01:24.2 Christopher Brenton: Yes. Well and I actually got a double dose. So you were alluding to the fact that we just, or just a few, a little while ago, I concluded the, 2023, 70th grand chapter. But then we went right into the 4th of July holiday. I gotta spend some time with my folks, down near, Wilmington, North Carolina, which is on the coast. And so I got a double dose. I don't know about you.
0:01:49.1 Adam Girtz: Yeah, Fort Lauderdale and then, Des Moines in Iowa. So, [laughter], I think I would say most of my tan probably came from Fort Lauderdale.
0:01:58.7 Christopher Brenton: So you were back to getting ready to go into hibernation for the winter. [laughter]
0:02:03.1 Adam Girtz: Yeah. Yep. The leaves are already changing. The animals are already preparing their nests. Yeah, I'm ready for the first snow that's going to come in late August.
0:02:15.6 Christopher Brenton: That two weeks of summer has come and gone.
0:02:18.5 Adam Girtz: Yep. It was wonderful while it lasted. Well everyone, I appreciate you all for joining us here. We've got a wonderful episode, our first episode of season six.
0:02:29.5 Christopher Brenton: Yeah.
0:02:30.3 Adam Girtz: Very exciting. Yeah, so our guest for today is Noah Borton. Christopher, care to share a little bit about Noah.
0:02:42.0 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. So we've been excited, or I've been personally excited to do this episode for a long time.
0:02:47.4 Adam Girtz: Me too.
0:02:48.0 Christopher Brenton: So...
0:02:48.4 Adam Girtz: I've also been excited. [laughter]
0:02:50.7 Christopher Brenton: Of course. Noah, the opportunity to interview Noah was personal, we will talk about this in their interview, but, when I was in my freshman year of college, I had the opportunity to attend, I guess at the conclusion of my freshman year, the 2009 College of Chapters. And Noah was a small group leader at that time. I'd say he was a small group leader for, my session of college of chapters. I got to know him during that experience and have really admired him from afar ever since then. Noah was a staff member working for the general fraternity from 2000 to 2004. He left staff to go and pursue some opportunities in higher education. He left higher education to go and work for Delta Upsilon International fraternity. Where he is today. He currently serves as their Senior Director of educational programs. But in addition to being able to talk to fraternity brothers who work for other, fraternity or sorority experiences like we have done in the past with guys like Ryan Hartwig, for example. Noah was recently elected as the president of the Association of Fraternity Sorority Advisors. Noah's been a long time volunteer for the association he serves at the co-editor for the Prospectives Magazine. He has been previously on the AFA board and so, also he's been recognized as an award winner for their Sue Kraft Fussell Distinguished Service Award. And so he has had a really accomplished in his well accomplished career and is well respected of course, within the profession.
0:04:38.1 Christopher Brenton: But the fact that he is now the president of the association gives us the opportunity to get some insight from him and to, I think the, fraternity and sorority movement at large. But then also to have someone who has valuable experience serving as both the campus-based advisor for a short while, a headquarter staff for two separate organizations. He's been a, volunteer for the organization. He currently serves as, an alumni advisory board, member for our, I believe Beta Zeta chapter. Yes. Beta Zeta chapter. So Purdue, has been a division commander in the past. So a lot of service, a lot of unique experiences. And I think he's actually, in rare company among Sigma Nus who has served, as AFA president. I think the only other person is Sigma Nu Hall of Fame member Dr. Victor Rosini, who is a Lambda Epsilon brother, sorry, I misspoke. He is BETA IOTA brother for the University of Mount Union, current chancellor of TCU, where our Lambda Epsilon chapter is located. But even more unique that, for Noah being a Sigma Nu as the President Association, he's also the first, headquarter staff person to hold, a position as president, typically as campus-based staff who were in that leadership position. So, a really unique and fun opportunity for us. And Noah's a great guy. So just, additional reasons that we're excited to have this interview.
0:06:11.0 Adam Girtz: For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, now that you've sufficiently hyped it up, let's dive into this interview. Yeah. Let's get into it and we'll see you guys in the back.
[Transition Music]
0:06:38.5 Christopher Brenton: Hello and welcome back. So we are joined with a special guest for today's episode, Noah Borton. Noah is a past staff member of the fraternity. He currently works as the senior director for educational programs for Delta Upsilon Fraternity, and is the current president of the Association of Fraternity/Sorority Advisors. Noah, welcome to the Sigma Nu Fraternity podcast, The Gavel.
0:07:08.7 Noah Borton: Hey, thanks Chris. Appreciate it. Good to be here.
0:07:11.8 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, glad to have you. So, I have been super excited about this for a long time, I can actually think to a very early moment of my fraternity experience of being at the 2009 College of Chapters, and Noah was my small group leader for the College of Chapters breakouts, and so ever since then I've had this kind of admiring from a far view because unfortunately you were not on staff whenever I joined the team, but we're doing awesome things, I believe at that time at the University of Eastern Michigan, is that right?
0:07:50.7 Noah Borton: Yep. Yep. Eastern Michigan University. Yep. Yep.
0:07:53.1 Christopher Brenton: And now lighting the World on Fire at DU. But it's always been a cool opportunity for me because I think you have been a touch point, at least from that early part of my fraternity experience. And so now getting the opportunity to interview you today, is an exciting milestone for me personally. So, Noah, excited to have the opportunity to talk to you.
0:08:13.6 Noah Borton: Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate you, you're being too kind here. You're being too kind, but good to have that little walk down memory lane and remember some good College of Chapters experiences from back in the day, kind of really going back into the memory bank on this one.
0:08:27.8 Christopher Brenton: Well, speaking of, so something that we tend to do with all of our episodes to start off when we're speaking with an alumnus is hearing your story. I think everybody has, that is a common thread, but your story is likely unique, and so we want to hear about that. So you had the opportunity to join the Lambda Iota chapter at Southern Utah University. But what was it about Sigma Nu that, made you decide that you wanted to join?
0:08:56.7 Noah Borton: Sure. I think, probably in a lot of ways I had probably kind of a typical story and journey that probably a lot of people would relate with, sitting in my dorm room, Juniper Hall, B 200 hanging out, not really getting engaged a whole lot in my freshman year, and I ended up joining in the spring. I was kind of that stereotypical guy, I remember still telling my dad, don't worry dad, I would never consider a fraternity, I can't drink enough to go hang out with those guys. And then I was actually at the point kind of halfway through where I was looking at places to transfer, just had not really found a niche, had not found a sense of belonging on campus, I guess would be how we see it talked about these days, but back then it was framed more as just, this sucks and I hate being here. And then a couple of guys on my dorm floor, I remember had T Roy and Nick and we're hanging out and like, hey, you should come check out Sigma Nu sometime. I don't think that's my kind of thing. They're like, well just go, let's hang out a little bit, let's hang out. Just started coming around with some of the guys and had a couple of other guys on my dorm floor, Nate and Neil.
0:10:25.1 Noah Borton: Neil, I still talk with every day today, and started looking into the fraternity and realizing like, yeah, there's just a really great connection here. Really felt welcome, felt cared for, the kind of Sigma Nu values and the way the guys were talking about what it meant to be a part of this fraternity really resonated for me, really loved the opportunity to get involved in the community, to really try to make a difference, to really try to make a contribution and just to have that community, right? And so decided to accept my bid and jumped right in and ended up really getting some great opportunities to be involved in the chapter, and served on executive board for a couple of years, I was able to serve as chapter commander.
0:11:15.7 Noah Borton: I think maybe, I guess you referenced your College of Chapters story. A few years before that I actually had the opportunity to be in Dave Manila's group at College of Chapters in Norman, Oklahoma that year, and that was really impactful for me and really opened up some opportunities for me to get involved with the lead program as we were kind of just launching what lead ended up becoming at that point and I really found an interest there. And so, then I still remember one day walking into the chapter house, kind of senior year and all the mail was sitting on the table and I guess, Sigma Nu used to send out this thing called letters, it was in a little envelope and things. So guys from my age, will remember just getting bombarded by mail from headquarters.
0:12:08.5 Noah Borton: It used to be a thing. So, one day there was sent out a letter saying they were looking for leadership consultants and there was an opportunity available. I was like, oh, I don't have anything lined up for next year, it'd be kind of cool to just go, travel around for a year and have that Sigma Nu experience, and I had gotten to know a couple of guys with headquarters staff through some of the Sigma Nu programming and going to Grand Chapter and College of Chapters and what they're having. So I decided to pick up the phone and give him a call and had a great chance to have a little sit down with Todd Denson. And Todd took good care of me and told me all those great things.
0:12:48.7 Christopher Brenton: As he does.
0:12:48.7 Noah Borton: Yep, yep. Todd is great. Todd was my introduction and kind of my guide into Sigma Nu on the international level, which certainly I still appreciate him for, and so I got the chance to come on with the headquarters staff and kind of the classic scenario of I'm going to do this for a couple of semesters and it turns into three years real fast, as you certainly know Chris, and it sounds like you probably know as well, Adam.
0:13:17.0 Noah Borton: Yep. And decided that from there, like I really enjoyed just working with students, really loved the higher education environment and so ended up deciding to go back and get a Master's degree at the University of Michigan in Higher Education Administration. And that kind of opened up my kind of higher education and fraternity, sorority advising career. So I guess that's kind of the initial phase from, nerdy, poorly dressed to awkward freshman to nerdy, poorly dressed, awkward young professional, so.
0:13:51.8 Christopher Brenton: This is the case for us all really. It is funny how for so many of us, the trajectory is, I'm going to join a fraternity. What? To now we've been career professionals in this industry for several years.
0:14:07.0 Noah Borton: Yep. Yeah, indeed. But yeah, still a lot of fond memories of Southern Utah. Great group of guys there that I think when I reflect back on it, I think I was really fortunate just being able to be surrounded by this group that really took me in, and they were really just invested in helping me develop self confidence, be successful. Put me in a position where I can achieve the goals that I want to achieve right? And challenge me and hold me accountable and make me push to do more than I thought that I could. And so I just felt really fortunate to end up with that group of guys and certainly really fortunate to have that undergraduate experience.
0:14:55.1 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. Well so, one of the reasons why we wanted to have you on this episode, not, in addition to all the other reasons that we would have you on, but you were recently elected as the Association of Fraternity/Sorority Advisors president. Now this is kind of a, I think a long, maybe somewhat inevitable, I think journey for you because you have been involved with the association for so long in various roles on the Oracle, the research magazine for the association, but just as all of as a service to the board. But I think for a lot of our listeners who often are volunteers or Alumni who have kind of a loose association with the national organization, the association and what it does is not really known to them. So I thought it would be helpful to talk about that a little bit and then kind of get a unique perspective of what is the association, what does it do, what's the perspective maybe of the campus based advisors who also are, or the association advocates for and as it advocates for the larger profession. Yeah. So kind of it's a multifaceted question, but essentially I think it drills down to what is the Association of Fraternity/Sorority Advisors and then what are your responsibilities as its president?
0:16:24.3 Noah Borton: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I got a chance to get tapped in, I guess, to take on this leadership opportunity and certainly it's been a great opportunity. I think people are very kind in thinking of me and reaching out and kind of giving me this chance to maybe try to help the organization in some capacity. So AFA is kind of the typical kind of common name for the association, Association Fraternity/Sorority Advisors. Really, it's a professional association for individuals who are engaged in the work of fraternity/sorority advising, right? So or engaged in work that supports fraternities and sororities and I think you're seeing that continue to evolve and grow in terms of what that means and what that looks like. When the organization was really created, I guess what, 45-ish years ago, it was really this kind of emerging group of individuals who worked on campus in like Dean of Students offices and campus activities offices and whatnot that were kind of like the Director of Fraternity/Sorority Life or the Dean of Fraternity/Sorority Affairs or something like that is what it probably would have been back in the day.
0:17:47.3 Noah Borton: And they came together to establish some opportunities for collaboration, for networking, for idea sharing, right? As you ended up with kind of this role where you had these people scattered across the country, where they're the only person that does what they do on a college campus, right? And they're looking for like who's somebody else that like gets what I'm doing and I can do some problem solving with and have some connection with, right? And so you really saw AFA kind of emerge from that, but it's really continued to grow and evolve over the years. And now you certainly see as headquarters staffs have evolved and become more professionalized and more robust, I think you've seen a greater demand for professional development and professional association among headquarters staff. You've seen kind of more, I'd say, entrepreneurship and private entities entering into the fraternity sorority space. And a number of them have had connection points and involvement with AFA as well.
0:18:52.0 Noah Borton: And certainly you see a lot of volunteers that are engaged in fraternity and sorority support getting involved, especially with culturally based organizations and even maybe local organizations or kind of more emerging fraternities and sororities. And so kind of all that is to say now, really, what the purpose of the organization is, is to provide professional development, training, resources, for individuals who work in supporting and working with fraternities and sororities in any capacity, really. And then it also provides an opportunity for community, right? For collaboration, networking...
0:19:36.3 Noah Borton: I like to say that a good purpose that we serve is providing the space where someone like, you all like a Scott Smith, like a Fred Dobry can be in the same environment with folks that are working on campus everyday folks that are working in maybe some of the private organizations everyday that support fraternities and sororities and developing relationships, knowing who each other is so that, when something comes up where we need to support a chapter, that's not the first time you're ever having a conversation with that person, right? Instead of having a conversation with, the director at some campus, you're having a conversation with, Joe that I've known for years and have a connection with.
0:20:24.2 Noah Borton: And so I think you see a real value there as well. And so that's kind of, really what I would say it is that we do as an organization. And kind of the short tagline that I offer rather than, giving you the long podcast answer, right? The short, like elevator talk is really we're working with these folks, work with fraternities and sororities and trying to help them be better at their jobs, and trying to give them resources they need to be successful in supporting our students.
0:20:53.3 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. What do you do question when you're sitting on an airplane and you have to [laughter] Try to quickly answer it [chuckle] The last thing though, I want to ask you related to this is, and this is more of maybe an observation, that is a question, but my assumption is, you bring kind of a unique perspective to this role as president in that you have served in so many different types of roles. You've been, on the headquarter staff for two different organizations. You've worked on a campus, you've been a volunteer, I would venture to guess that that has aided you in this role of being able to both speak the language of, or the common language of fraternity and sorority life but then also the unique languages of what is the unique experience of only having worked for a professional headquarter staff or, similarly on a campus and/or as you were talking about some of the more culturally based organizations or MPHC organizations, having maybe been a volunteer but then also having an expectation of national leadership for the organization. That's my assumption is that, you get to bring that to the table. Do you feel like that is true?
0:22:10.5 Noah Borton: Yeah. I think certainly I feel like my experience has helped set me up to be successful in this role. The maybe helped provide some good input and insight, and hopefully, I think maybe to help open up some opportunities for me to be able to engage others and give other people a platform for their voices to be heard through the work of the association. I think, yeah, it is, I guess, a little bit unique to have me serving this role. I guess I am the first headquarter staff member that's ever been elected as president of the association. Always prior to this, it had been someone who works in a campus capacity. So, I do think I'm able to bring a little bit of a different lens, and understanding, the organizational side of things, and I think, as you guys can certainly understand there's just, some differences that emerge when you're trying to figure out how to make an organization run, right?
0:23:18.2 Noah Borton: And some things that you need to be aware of there. I guess I think also something I've really been able to lean on is kind of just, having a track record with the organization, having a volunteer experience with the organization. And I think it, like you said, I've been able to volunteer for years in several different capacities. I think it was Perspectives as the magazine of the association. So I was editor of the magazine for a few years and served on the editorial board there. And I think it, was a great opportunity for me from a professional development standpoint just helping me learn, develop new understanding, develop some new skills that I could utilize in my work and develop relationships that I could utilize and connecting with others in speaking to like, how does this help me in understanding the association and understanding the work that we're engaging in.
0:24:17.5 Noah Borton: I think something I really see as critical right now is you see that, there's a lot of different ways to experience fraternities and sororities, right? And even we could look at the three of us probably all have, certainly unique fraternity background and there's clearly some commonalities here around Sigma Nu and, whatnot. But certainly, the way that fraternities existed at Southern Utah University looks a lot different than what it was like at NC State 10, 15 years later, right? Now, Adam, where are you from? What's your chapter? I don't think I covered that.
0:24:56.0 Adam Girtz: North Dakota State.
0:24:57.9 Noah Borton: Ah, North Dakota State, right?
0:25:00.6 Adam Girtz: Yep.
0:25:00.9 Noah Borton: Ah, some good memories going up and working with those guys. Actually, I got to attend initiation at your chapter one time.
0:25:06.7 Adam Girtz: No kidding. What year?
0:25:10.4 Noah Borton: Man, long time ago.
0:25:12.2 Adam Girtz: Yeah. [laughter]
0:25:12.5 Noah Borton: 2002, bro.
0:25:14.7 Adam Girtz: Forced you to date yourself. Okay. [laughter]
0:25:19.5 Noah Borton: I don't even know if you were born yet. But yeah. m[laughter]
0:25:23.9 Adam Girtz: All right. All right.
0:25:25.0 Christopher Brenton: Well, I will say...
0:25:25.9 Adam Girtz: Yeah.
0:25:28.7 Christopher Brenton: We do no. Yeah, we do have some born in 2001 staff now. So, it's getting there. [chuckle]
0:25:36.8 Adam Girtz: It's getting there.
0:25:38.7 Noah Borton: Yeah, man. Well, age comes for us all, I'll tell you what.
0:25:41.2 Adam Girtz: Yeah, yeah. [laughter]
0:25:44.9 Noah Borton: So how does this help me out? And I think you see that that's only becoming more expansive. Like there's just so many different ways that someone can experience what a fraternity is. And I think fraternity can be something different to a lot of people in higher education today. And so I think that diversification and that variety of experience I think is one of the things that's helping make this institution, this organization still relevant and successful in kind of contemporary higher education. Then when you take it to the support side, the way in which you can engage in fraternity and sorority work is becoming increasingly varied. And is becoming something that can take on a lot of different forms and working in fraternity and sorority in life and working to support fraternities and sororities might mean some different things to different people as well.
0:26:44.9 Noah Borton: And so I think having a little bit of variety in my background has just helped me develop an appreciation for that and recognize that maybe engaging in this work doesn't have to look the same for me as it looks for someone in another type of environment. But just because it doesn't reflect kind of what my experience has been doesn't mean it's not valuable, credible, doesn't mean they're not doing great things. And so I think there's real value as an association in having community for all these different individuals as well as figuring out what are all these different needs so that we can help make them be successful in the way that they are working with fraternities and sororities. Like so I'm kind of my mentality coming into this and like with campus experience, the different headquarters experience, volunteer experiences, has been kind of like a big tent mentality. We need everybody engaged in the work of helping this experience thrive if we're going to get to where we need to be.
0:27:49.3 Christopher Brenton: Nice. So Noah, I was kind of struck by something you said in your story. Like you never really expected to join a fraternity and now all of a sudden you are, I would say arguably one of the couple dozen most involved new people in fraternity/sorority in the country. Like that to go from not really considering it to the place that you're at now, there has to be some kind of like fulfilling portion of it or something that it's driving you to motivate you to stay engaged and to support this like you truly believe in it or there is that motivating factor there. What's motivating you to stay engaged to support the movement and just continue advocating for fraternity/sorority life experience. Especially as we move into kind of this modern era of it, where it looks different than it did 20 years ago or even 10 years ago.
0:28:55.1 Noah Borton: Yeah, sure. Well, I don't know that I would put myself up there with a group of a couple of dozen. There's probably thousands of people out there that are equally or I think more so engaged and committed than I am, part of the team and trying to do some good work. And I guess why am I still here? What am I doing? Some days you ask that question more than others, I guess, but maybe because they just keep inviting me back [laughter] They just let me keep hanging out and so I keep showing up. I think I have really enjoyed this work in some regard I said I would go back to some of my memories in my Sigma Nu experience. Like I mentioned, I had the opportunity to connect with Dave Mannella and get engaged in some of the early lead program launches and serve on the lead committee as an undergraduate. And then I think it was really a great experience for me, getting to travel around as a leadership consultant and presenting these workshops, working with chapters on that most fundamental level. I don't know that it can get just more in it than sitting on somebody's couch and being fully engaged in how are we going to make this work for you?
0:30:28.1 Noah Borton: And so that was a really meaningful experience for me. I think I learned a lot and it really helped me find kind of an area of passion for me, which has kept me kind of connected to the fraternity and kept me engaged. And I think something I'm always really appreciative of is having those opportunities with the lead program through Sigma Nu, which now I said like launched my entire career, essentially like giving me opportunity to learn about leadership development, to engage in some curriculum development conversations, to be able to stand up in the front of a room and deliver a program really set me on the path for everything that I have now. And so I think there's certainly, on some level just an appreciation and wanting to continue contributing to that and appreciating the opportunities I had there through Sigma Nu and that folks like Dave and certainly Brad Beacham and David Glassman and Todd Denson opened up for me.
0:31:35.2 Noah Borton: And then as I've gotten involved and stayed connected with the train experience, I think ultimately, clearly there's challenges. Like some things have been not great sometimes, and there's criticisms and sometimes those criticisms are valid, but I also see where this experience has had real value for me. I think it can have a real impact when we do it the right way and when guys are given the right opportunities to succeed. And that's something I want to be a part of. I find that compelling still. I find it enjoyable to be able to engage in helping to coach our young men, helping them find their path, helping them become successful in whatever endeavors it is that they want to do. And I think there are a lot of different ways to do that. There's a lot of different vehicles available in higher education through which you can find community, find your best friends, find your future groomsmen and get set up for success in your career. But fraternity is the one that I've gotten connected with. Fraternity is the one that I love and hopefully it's one that I maybe have something to offer. And as long as they keep answering the phone, I'm going to keep calling and see if they'll let me come hang out a little bit.
0:33:00.4 Christopher Brenton: I love that. Yeah. And it never really changes. There's always kind of a cycle of young men coming in and the archetypes and the experiences that they have are kind of this repeating thing to be able to take these years of experience and layer that onto that and support that is such a neat thing. To that end, with your experience in fraternity and sorority and in supporting it, what do you see kind of as the the most critical issue facing fraternity/sorority right now? And how do you think the community needs to rise to face that?
0:33:45.7 Noah Borton: Yeah, good question there. That's probably a whole podcast series in another cell. [laughter]
0:33:52.0 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. Oh, it easily could be right? [laughter]
0:33:54.9 Noah Borton: You were talking about our cycle here of the 19 year olds coming in, and one thing I have said is the one most dependable thing you can expect out of 19 year olds, as they do seem to repeatedly act like they're 19. That does create some challenges [laughter] and some things we need to deal with. The easy answer there is clearly there's some issues around behavior and conduct and meeting expectations that certainly provide some threats to the continued success of fraternities. But that's not a new thing. We've...
0:34:40.0 Christopher Brenton: That's always been a thing.
0:34:41.7 Noah Borton: Yeah. I remember in history of higher education class reading letters from university presidents in the mid 1800s being like, "yeah, we have these fraternity things that have showed up and I'm like, not really sure about these things. I don't think we really want them around here." Concern for 19 year olds making poor decisions is always going to be a part of the equation. And it's always going to be something that we're working to help them learn and help them develop. But something I see and this is maybe more a lens I gained through involvement with the international organization and involvement maybe through AFA and getting to engage with some of my peers on that level. There's definitely some dynamics in how higher education is evolving, that really provides some threats. We're clearly still kind of figuring out how enrollment patterns are going to shift post-COVID. I think you're seeing one, a shift toward kind of flagship and prominent universities really seeing increased enrollment growth. I think you're seeing then a lot of challenges with kind of enrollment and stability at maybe some of our more regional and comprehensive and smaller private institutions. Then just on the whole, you're seeing a greater diversification of students in higher education.
0:36:17.0 Noah Borton: And that's bringing then different backgrounds, different interests, different needs and that's coming in the backdrop of a higher education environment that's also has more variety and opportunities and involvements in ways to meet those needs than you've ever seen before. Fraternities need to figure out how to respond to that. We can't continue to just operate like it's 1985, meeting 1985 needs and expect to appeal to the needs and the student of 2030. Then along with that, you see there's some real challenges with the financial model that we're operating on, especially in kind of the NIC member organizations, the Sigma Nus of the world. We see models that are really rooted in a lot... A primarily housing based model or a model that really depends on kind a larger chapter size and being at campuses that can support. That is presenting some real challenges. because I think you're seeing probably the spaces that can support that are diminishing. And we have to find a way to tap into new markets and tap into new student environments where we can support those student needs and make it work.
0:37:47.0 Noah Borton: But I guess kind of meandering a little bit in the conversation here, but... Yeah, I think that the need for all these resources is being driven by increased demand for greater services, more professionalized services for the headquarters, the stuff you guys are doing at Sigma Nu, the... Just the level of the staffing, the level of the support and services just blows the stuff we were doing outta the water. And I'm continually impressed by the stuff that's coming outta Sigma Nu, and you guys have, amassed the phenomenal stuff, just incredible. But that comes at a cost, like you have to invest to get talent, you have to invest to create services, and that is then that creates something on the other end where you have to be able to create a financial model that can support that. Then the other dynamic that's really I think applying pressure is clearly, risk issues are driving certainly insurance rates and legal losses.
0:39:10.6 Noah Borton: And that certainly creates a threat for the organization as well. And you kind of put all that into a pot together, and it's just, at some point you start pricing people out of the experience, right? And you are seeing an environment in higher education where the number of people that can afford that experience and gain access to that experience is becoming a smaller and smaller pool. And so you're looking at having greater and greater dependence on a smaller and smaller population, and that's not like a great recipe for long term sustainability of any type of business in any type of market. So what's the challenge? That.
0:39:51.5 Adam Girtz: Yeah, all of that get rolled into one big ball of a problem, right.
0:39:57.1 Christopher Brenton: Well, and to echo your point, Noah, I mean, Adam and I had a chance to attend the Fraternity communications association, a different association, we had...
0:40:06.1 Noah Borton: 100th anniversary, big year, yeah.
0:40:08.1 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, thank you. We attended their annual meeting and Justin Kirk was there, the executive director for DU.
0:40:15.9 Noah Borton: Hi boss.
0:40:16.0 Christopher Brenton: But, yeah. But non-dues revenue I think is, that's the buzzword, that you hear so much of, like, how do we create new streams of money so that we're not having to put this all on our collegiate members, through dues increases or even from the foundation's perspective of like, "Hey, we're asking people to give but we have an expanding budget, how do we continue to afford this?" And so everybody is talking about non-dues revenue, like how do we make this affordable? So everything you're saying, we, I think are seeing and hearing and absolutely.
0:41:01.3 Noah Borton: Yeah. I mean, that's certainly a big challenge and I think, you also see that you're probably going to have to figure out a way to service chapters in different ways in different environments, I think, that's always been the same to some degree, the experience, the environment that you're having at the University of Georgia is just different than what it's going to look like at a North Dakota State or southern Utah or Cal State LA. But now that you're looking at not only is there going to be some kind of just regional and kind of cultural differences, it's going to be an actual different like financial model that's going to work. It's going to be just a whole different organizational structure that's going to work on one campus versus another, and I think I struggle with that in my work of figuring out how to make that fit and where maybe there's some lines there of like, we can make a good fraternity experience happen on this campus and maybe we can't on this campus, and that is a challenge, that we're trying to figure out.
0:42:19.9 Adam Girtz: So, where do we go? So how do we enable our alumni, which is like the majority of our members, our graduated and are out in the world, and how do they best continue to give back and help keep the organization going or the organization and the movement, fraternity/sorority life as an entirety?
0:42:48.1 Noah Borton: Yeah, good question. I don't know that I have like, any magic answers for you there, man. I think ultimately in my thought, like every answer I give is, "Well, there's just a lot of different things and a lot of different ways" but I would say that for an alumni, like everybody has to find like, what is their way to be meaningfully connected, meaningfully engaged and provide support? And I think that's going to look different for a lot of people, for someone maybe it is that 10 bucks a month they can throw into a scholarship fund to help a chapter out, right? Maybe for somebody, it's going to be being that chapter advisor that is at meeting in the house, like really engaging, providing that coaching development every single year.
0:43:38.2 Noah Borton: Maybe for some alumni it's going to be being able to come in and do a little career development talk, or being able to come give a speech at the annual homecoming banquet, and providing some support and connection there. And for some, maybe it's going to be more of like engagement with the international organization and helping to provide some support there or contributing through a volunteer role. So I think it can be a lot of different ways, we don't need everyone showing up to the chapter house every single day, we just, we need to have some people showing up to the chapter house, we need to have some people that can provide their treasurer, some people that can provide some of that mentorship and career coaching and guidance and some people that are just going to be advocates and care and read the delta and give us a like on Facebook and still care that we're putting in the work, that all matters. I think a couple of pieces just that I've experienced over the years and some things that I think would really help us maybe is...
0:44:51.9 Noah Borton: One thing, we need our alumni to understand that it's not about creating their experience, like we all have our alumni experience and that's great, and we should all do that and find joy in that, but also for our undergraduates now in getting involved, providing support, it's not about recreating the experience that I had 25 years ago at Southern Utah University, right? It's got to be about creating an experience for these students on their campus that's relevant to them and provides the support that they need and that might not necessarily look exactly like it did for me, or they might not care about the same things that I did and I have to be okay with that. I think another thing that's really important as well is I do see sometimes alumni get engaged in a way that can be counterproductive maybe, or engaged in a way that, even if it's well intended, is really in some ways enabling some of the destructive or harmful or concerning behavior that we're trying to address in chapters. I think sometimes we need to advocate for our students, we want our students to feel supported and to be treated fairly, but there's also a point at which we have to have some standards and expectations.
0:46:24.7 Noah Borton: There has to be some accountability and we can't just be excusing away some of these behaviors. This can't just be a boys will be boys kind of situation, if we're going to be a respected, thriving organization that people want on their campuses, then we need to live up to that honor principle we need to recognize that sometimes that means some hard conversations, sometimes that means some hard decisions and, I think even with some chapters I've worked with over the years, one of the things that I get just so saddened by maybe, I guess I don't know what the right word would be you just that you kind of hate to see is sometimes you'll see just these phenomenal alumni that really want to promote a positive Sigma Nu experience that really want to do it the right way on this campus, and they're getting pushed away by kind of like a toxic alumni base. An alumni base that's really enabling the chapter to go down a path that I would maybe say does not align with probably what we're hoping for and what we're expecting out of our young men and ends up making it more of a combative relationship with the headquarters or the campus or more of an adversarial relationship rather than a partnership relationship where we're working to support that student success.
0:47:54.5 Noah Borton: Right, and that's something you always hate to see, and I think that's also one where I would encourage those alumni that feel like they're on the sidelines to step in, to assert themselves and not be afraid to say, like, "Hey, I want to get involved, I want to help our students out, and I want to address some of these challenges and try to make Sigma Nu what I believe it can be."
0:48:20.8 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think when I was an undergrad, I had the chance to attend a DU initiation, DU has an open public ritual and I remember hearing a mentor of mine who strongly advised me to go, and the reason that she said that was she was like, ritual, if everybody knew what our ritual said, it would force us to have to live up to it because everybody would see that this is what it says and this is what we're supposed to do. And so I've always appreciated that about DU, that they have a non-secret open ritual that you can live truly up to those expectations. I think there's probably some truth into the fact that we don't really have to think about it or we don't really held accountable to it because people don't know what is in our ritual. But certainly what you just shared kind of resonates with me of like, hey, we need advisors who can step up and do the work of holding us accountable to being the organization that our values espouse us to be. And certainly every generation of student needs that level of accountability and support in order to help us realize that larger mission that Sigma Nu is working towards.
0:49:40.6 Noah Borton: Yeah, sure. And certainly the open ritual is pretty cool. I do enjoy being able to partake in that as a staff member and supporting our men. And in doing that, actually was just at Williams College where the fraternity was founded this week for our Emerging Leaders program and got to share with our students where that came from and why the organization was established as a non secret organization and, but as you get more into that, it's ultimately you realize it's, secret non-secret. I don't I don't know if that means as much as as you get older, really, what still continues to resonate to me is standing in that room with that group of guys looking at each other, knowing that you're making this commitment to each other and that you're going to live that out with each other you're going to hold each other accountable to that, you're going to strive to kind of be worthy of those commitments that you make to each other, and I think that's something I continue to carry with me.
0:50:41.5 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. Well, Noah, we just want to say thank you so much for joining us today and being on The Gavel podcast. Certainly, I have like I said, been looking forward to this opportunity, but just in general, I think it's really valuable for us to be able to use you somewhat as a vehicle to kind of help explain some of these larger concepts, especially for our advisors and volunteers who do the work of interacting with our campus-based professionals, our volunteers who also, maybe a faculty member on campus or something that also helps support our chapters but then they just don't know kind of the larger organizational structures that are in place. So helpful to get to have that explainer for the AFA but then also just to hear your story a little bit.
0:51:31.2 Noah Borton: Yeah. Well, thanks, I appreciate that. And certainly I hope maybe some of our alumni out there can take something out of this and certainly appreciate all the work that they're doing, I guess maybe I can... Probably something I should have said and that last answer was also maybe a little more appreciation for the work of our alumni advisors and advisory boards and the work that we're doing. And I think we're trying to do some good stuff on the international level, I know you guys are putting out some great things. We try to provide some support for them on the association level. But ultimately, the number one factor I've found in the last 25 years of a good chapter is having a good chapter alumni board and a good chapter alumni advisor, and I think some of the groups I... You think Minnesota's, the Case Western's, the Oklahoma States, the groups that just every year, they're going to be up there as the best that we have in Sigma Nu and it's just phenomenal alumni support, phenomenal alumni advisors really driving that, and so that's what we need.
0:53:04.6 Christopher Brenton: Absolutely. Well, Noah, once again, thank you and it's been a pleasure.
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0:53:08.2 Adam Girtz: Alright, welcome back everyone here. Wonderful interview with Noah, very cool, and I think he was a little humble in the middle, but I do think given the experience he's had I do think as far as variety of experience and your time and dedication, and he's gotta be up there and maybe not the top 20 or whatever, but he's definitely gotta be up there as far as time spent, experience, dedication to the movement, so I think he was being a little too humble there, but really, really cool to hear from Noah. Christopher, any thoughts?
0:53:50.7 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, like I said during the interview, I think it's unique that we have this new platform to allow alumni to kind of tell their own stories and for us to feature unique experiences, and so I just look forward to every time that we have the opportunity to line up a new interview and get to talk to them, and so I'm really just excited that we were able to give Noah this platform, but then also, for our listeners to learn a little bit more about kind of an area of the fraternity world that maybe they're unfamiliar with, but certainly has an impact on the work that... Or certainly has an impact on the experiences that they are also helping to create if whether they're volunteers or just living the day-to-day experiences as an alumnus or a collegiate member. Yeah I thought it was great. I loved it.
0:54:47.3 Adam Girtz: I think it's something that I think about sometimes in relation to fraternity as a concept and as an organization or as a movement. Right? Really, the core purpose is kind of passing down this knowledge of how to be an upstanding citizen, how to be productive, how to be effective and doing that with a crew of peers that you are going through life with and figuring all this out. So really when it comes down to it in that definition of it volunteers and alumni that are volunteering their time to work with the chapter are one of the most integral parts of that. We're increasing that link that people have to this fraternal knowledge that we are passing down to... It just makes me think about how important it is that our volunteers are there, and that they're giving their time to help bring up this new generation, and like we talked about in the interview a little bit it always goes through cycles and there's always new young men that are coming in every day and every year and new members graduating and becoming alumni and new alumni coming back to volunteer, so it's a beautiful cycle and I love it. So, Christopher anything we're excited for here coming up? I know we just got done with probably the most exciting period of our summer, and maybe we could finally have a sigh of relief being done with that but gearing up for the fall. Anything you're excited for?
0:56:32.0 Adam Girtz: Well, I would say that for some of our staff we are maybe entering into a brief lull, if there is such a thing, in our work, but period before the calm in between the storms.
0:56:47.5 Adam Girtz: Yes.
0:56:47.5 Christopher Brenton: So now that we're done with Grand Chapter, we'll very soon be kind of kicking things back up again with the start of the new fall semester and then a new academic year, I am busy at work on our fall 2023 issue of The Delta so for subscribers to the print issue, you can expect that in your mailboxes around the end of September, we released two issues a year, the last one was in March. And so we're kind of on a March, September cycle so every six months you should expect a new print issue. But I'm really excited, we've got a lot of cool stories that are going to be in that issue, I'm not going to spoil them now, but certainly I think people will be excited to read them whenever they come out. But you just kind of referenced this idea of a continuous cycle, and certainly if there is one thing that we can count on, it is that it, every new year begins with recruitment. We are looking for new members to join the organization certainly, recruitment is the lifeblood of the organization, it allows us to continue operating, but then also to continue our mission.
0:57:58.4 Christopher Brenton: And so very soon students will be returning to campus or arriving to campus for the first time, and so as with any year we are always on the out or on the lookout for prospective members that may desire to join the organization or are quality men that could be referred, so if you are a parent, if you are an uncle, if you are a brother, if you are a sibling, whatever, a friend of someone or you yourself are someone who might be interested in Sigma Nu, we have a website that you can go to identify yourself or someone else so that way they can be contacted by a member of the general fraternity staff. Their contact information can be shared with a recruitment officer, recruitment chairman at a various campus that could reach out to the individual and take them out to lunch, introduce them to the organization or to men who are part of that collegiate chapter. The way to do that is go to sigmanu.org/referral. It's going to be sigmanu.org/R-E-F-E-R-R-A-L that will take you to the website. Mac McNeilly is our Director of expansion and recruitment, he recently started back at the beginning of May, so he has been the director of expansion for a short while, but we'll be enthusiastic to receiving your referrals that can come in and make sure that they get where they need to go so we can recruit the next class of outstanding young knights.
0:59:38.1 Adam Girtz: Absolutely, that would be ideal and wonderful. So if you know a prospective young man who's headed off on the grand journey of higher education, definitely let us know. And that link will be in the episode description. Christopher, anything else?
0:59:58.6 Christopher Brenton: I think that's it.
1:00:00.5 Adam Girtz: Alright. Well, as always if you enjoyed our episode today, best thing you can do is to share the episode and share the show with a brother. As you learn in fraternity everything's better with your brother. So go ahead and share that with a brother and let him know that the show exists and that they can find it wherever podcasts can be found. Yeah. And until next month, hi rickety. That's where Christopher, you say, Hi rickety.
1:00:31.4 Christopher Brenton: Hi rickety.
1:00:33.8 Adam Girtz: Yay, woohoo bye everyone.
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