In this episode, Adam and Christopher interview Wade Catts (Ball State), Registered Professional Archeologist and son of Elmer Paul Catts, Jr. (Delaware). During the episode, Adam, Christopher, and Wade talk about the legacy of Elmer Paul Catts, Jr. and his painting, A Serpent, A Rose, and A Star.
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The Gavel Podcast - Ep 31 - A Serpent, A Rose, A Star with Wade Catts (Ball State)
[Intro Music]
0:00:42.3 Adam Girtz: Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of The Gavel Podcast. I'm Adam.
0:00:46.7 Christopher Brenton: And I'm Christopher.
0:00:47.6 Adam Girtz: The Gavel Podcast is the official podcast of Sigma Nu Fraternity and it's a show dedicated to keeping you updated on the operations of the Legion of Honor and connecting you to the stories from our brotherhood.
0:00:57.7 Christopher Brenton: To find out more from the fraternity. You can always check out our website at sigmanu.org. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter @SigmaNuHQ or by searching for Sigma Nu Fraternity.
0:01:07.9 Adam Girtz: Well, good morning, Christopher and good morning, afternoon, evening to all of our listeners, we appreciate you all joining us for a wonderful episode. I would say a remarkable interview, an interview that was a lot of fun to conduct and really, I think, we talked about in our preamble to the podcast, the intro, connecting brothers to the stories from our brotherhood. And I think this is one of the best examples of that, the Serpent, the Rose and the Star painting is probably one of our most... I would say is our most iconic painting work of or artifact that we have in the fraternity, and to get some insight on the creation of that, the history of that from the son of the artist himself is an incredible story from our brotherhood.
0:02:04.3 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, I think so much of the history of everything is just real people living real lives, and over time. Time as legacy and time adds value and importance, and certainly this is a great example of, we're getting to learn more about one of our most famous artifacts, but we're also learning about the real lived experience of someone who is associated with that, in the case of Wade Catts. So, also too, just for our listeners, so we're going to be interviewing Wade Catts today, and so passing that interview on to you. Wade Catts is the son of Elmer Paul Catts, who was the artist who painted the "A Serpent, A Rose, And A Star", which is one of our most famous paintings, if not the most famous painting that we have. Certainly, every member who's gone through a modern version of numeral education has likely had some exposure to that painting.
0:03:08.5 Christopher Brenton: And more if you had the opportunity to come and visit the fraternity's headquarters, you have seen it. But the way that we got connected to Wade was kind of one of coincidence. Wade had come to Lexington to visit the fraternities headquarters to experience a tour, and then was connected with our Director of Alumni Advisory Programs, Todd Denson. Todd and Wade had the opportunity on talk about growing up and Wade's experience of coming to a chapter house and seeing his dad's painting on the wall, and kind of how surreal of a moment that was. And so Todd passed his name on to us, we were able to get connected with Wade and ultimately, Adam, I think you would agree, had just a really great time talking with Wade and I think it resulted in an excellent interview.
0:04:02.6 Adam Girtz: Yeah. Oh yeah, I would agree. I think you can hear it, my voice all the time is something that really got me fired up, really got me excited, it's just such a cool story and it makes me grateful that we are able to do this podcast. I think we're recording stories for posterity that otherwise might have slipped away. And I think that's a really important function of the audio format that we're using. Yeah. I think it's really neat, but lets... We can dive into the episode here, but before we get to the interview, if you are interested in viewing the painting and having it fresh on the mind, or you may be looking at it while you're hearing Wade discuss various parts of it, we do have a link to the high quality photo of the painting as well as some background in the show notes. So feel free, pull over your car if you're driving and click that link and view the painting, have it fresh on your mind. So with that, let's go to our interview with Wade Catts.
[Transition Music]
0:05:39.5 Christopher Brenton: Hello and welcome back to the episode. So as Adam and I mentioned at the start, a couple of weeks ago, we learned from our staff member, Todd Denson, who's our Director of Alumni Advisory Programs about a special guest who had recently visited the fraternities headquarters. None other than Wade Catts, son of Elmer Paul Catts, who was the painter of one of the fraternities most cherished paintings, "A Serpent, A Rose, And A Star." And so when Todd shared this news, Adam and I got really excited because we thought it would be a really cool opportunity to have Wade on the podcast to provide context for this painting, the life of brother Catts and his son, brother Catts. And how the legacy of this really important painting for the organization had come to be, how it came to the fraternity.
0:06:40.0 Christopher Brenton: And then just for our listeners, just trying to get as many of the moreso's and details as that we can about, I think, something that's a really cool part of Sigma Nu's history. So we are very fortunate to have Wade on this episode. Wade, typically for all of our episodes, we like to invite our guest to do a quick introduction. So if you want to quickly introduce yourself, your name, your Chapter Designation. For those who don't know Chapter Designations, your university. And then from there, we've got a few more questions to ask you for the intro.
0:07:14.9 Wade Catts: Thanks, Christopher and Adam. Thanks for having me on today. I'm a Sigma Nu from Ball State University, Theta Nu Chapter in the 1970s. So 1977 was my pledge year. And I live in Delaware, from Newark. I'm from Newark, Delaware, I'm still living in Newark, Delaware. So I was at Delaware, and at the time I went out to Ball State in Muncie, Indiana.
0:07:41.7 Adam Girtz: I got to consult Ball State and spent quite a lot of time there, very much enjoyed the Theta Nu guys there. So, yeah. If any of them are listening, shout out to you guys. Missed the chapter, very much loved going there. It was always one that I looked forward to because when we would do workshops, I felt like the chapter really invested in it and we would have really great conversations, but that's beside the point. So I guess you could be proud that your chapter is still out there doing well.
0:08:13.7 Wade Catts: They're a very good chapter, I have not... I have to admit, I have not seen most of my brothers in probably 40 years, but I'm a social media friend with a lot of them, and so I feel like I'm still connected to a lot of guys that I haven't seen in a long, long time.
0:08:30.4 Christopher Brenton: And on the Delaware side, wait, I'm sure you're aware that Sigma Nu recently re-colonized our Delta Kappa Chapter, which is your father's chapter at the University of Delaware. And so we're excited for Sigma Nu to be back in Newark. And have to say it, Newark. I learned that when I was the consultant for the Delta Kappa chapter and not Newark as I think a lot of people prefer to say.
0:08:53.2 Wade Catts: That's correct. Newark is in New Jersey, Newark is in Delaware. There's a Newark, Ohio, but we are Newark, Delaware.
0:09:02.3 Adam Girtz: Love that. That's good. [chuckle]
0:09:03.3 Christopher Brenton: Good to know.
0:09:04.3 Wade Catts: And not only was my father a member of that Delta Kappa chapter, but so were my uncle's. So my father's brother, John cats, I think if you look at the list, you'll see him as a member. I think he joined... He became a brother a few years before my brother did. He served in the second World War, then came back out of the service and joined Sigma Nu. And his immediate, I think next number in the list is, Robert C. Fermister and he is my aunt husband, he's my uncle. He was my father's sister's husband. So there were a series of family members there that were all members at Delta Kappa.
0:09:56.8 Adam Girtz: A long and storied history, I love it.
0:09:58.0 Christopher Brenton: Well, I think this might actually serve as a potential answer to the next question I'm going to ask you. But typically with all of our guests, one of the things we like to ask is about their Sigma Nu story. We know that each of our brothers has a unique journey to becoming a member of the organization. And we understand too that Sigma Nu has a unique impact on the lives of our members.
0:10:21.2 Christopher Brenton: And so, Wade, when you think back to your time as a collegiate member, what was it about the organization that made you decide to join? Could be your father and your uncles, but for you, what was that personal decision? And then what would you say is your biggest take away from your undergraduate experience?
0:10:41.8 Wade Catts: There are a couple components to that. My father was a professor at the University of Delaware, so he taught here. He also was the chapter advisor for many, many years, and so he would be... He was very much engaged with the Delta Kappa chapter. And through family members, my uncles, my father, I often met people that were his fraternity brothers, so that... Delaware is a very small place. And at that time, the University of Delaware was very much a state but local school. If you were a Delawarean and you went to a university, chances are you went to the University of Delaware. And that meant that you would meet those people throughout the state and so I was often exposed to people and new people who had been my father's either fraternity brothers at the time he was there, or were people that he... He actually recruited graduate students and things in his own program at the Ag school, he would actually recruit students to become Sigma Nu's.
0:11:51.3 Wade Catts: I've learned this recently, there seems to have been a pipeline that he was working on from his own students to go in to join the fraternity and also to play lacrosse. So he kind of did all those things at the same time, but when it came to going out to Ball State, I had this conversation with... And I greatly admired my father as what he was able to achieve in his work ethic and his kind of his life ethic and things.
0:12:17.1 Wade Catts: So when he and I went out to Ball State to look at the school, one of the comments he made was I might consider joining a fraternity, and he suggested Sigma Nu, but he also recognized that that may not be what you want to do, but certainly you could try that. Then at the time, one of the things he said, which is still stuck with me is, you can go to college, you can go for four years, and if you don't join an organization like a fraternity or something like that on campus, you end up living for four years in the dormitory, and when you're done and you kind of come back to visit your university, you kind of go, "Well, I lived in that dormitory for four years, but I never really did much else other than live in the dormitory for four years." Whereas, if you become a member of an organization on campus and a fraternity, which is probably the best example of it, it really does give you a very different collegiate experience.
0:13:10.3 Wade Catts: And the reason I was going to Ball State, long way to get you to this point, was that I had a Track scholarship. So I was a sprinter in my high school, I was fairly quick. In Delaware, I was probably in the top five or six people that could run 100 meters or 200 yard dash or a quarter mile. I was essentially a quarter miler, but I could do other races as well, and Ball State offered me a Track scholarship, which was out of state tuition, they would wave out-of-state tuition. And I also was interested in anthropology, and so that's where my interest in archeology comes from, but I checked with people I knew in the anthropology program at Ball State was comparable to the University of Delaware, for example, and it was a place that would give me a good degree.
0:13:57.0 Wade Catts: And I would also say that my father, because he was a faculty member here, often said that you should try to go away to school, don't stay in the same town that you grew up in, try to go some place else, try to learn about some other places. So it struck me that Ball State sounded like a good thing, I had not really spend a lot of time in the Midwest, that would be kind of interesting to go out to Indiana, see what the world was like.
0:14:24.9 Wade Catts: So my freshman year, freshman, probably it was September, the university is running around robin for fraternities on campus, so I guess you all are familiar with round-robins. So the idea that you, on any given Saturday or a particular Saturday, you visit all of the fraternities on campus, and go and visit each of these because they're recruiting, they're trying to recruit new members. And we started out at probably the Sigaps, if I recall, or somebody like that was... There was a section at Ball State at that time that was a fraternity row where all of the houses were, most of the houses were. But as the afternoon wore on, we went to the Sigma Nu house. And the Sigma Nu house was not like anybody else's house. It was on the other side of campus, it was behind the bookstore, it was behind the student center, the bookstore. There wasn't another fraternity that I can recall that was over that way. Was over by itself, and the house was really small. Probably the house that you may have visited is their new house, I have not visited their house yet. This house was more like a four square 1930s bungalow, it wasn't much bigger than that.
0:15:41.3 Wade Catts: It probably had three bedrooms, a living room, dining room kitchen, three bedrooms, and it was an extremely exciting chapter. Even though the house was small, it wasn't the house that made the chapter, it was the brothers that made the chapter. And to me, that was one of the most exciting things I saw. The other was, and this kind of leads to the, the Serpent, a Rose and a Star. Literally, this was the last house I visited that day. And I walked in the door and turned in to look in the living room and looked on the wall to my right, and my father's painting is hanging there. And I said to the brother that was recruiting, I just got to just have me standing next to me, and he turned out to be the chapter commander at the time, which I didn't know at the time, but it was Mike Early. And I said, "You're not going to believe this, but my father painted that." And the expletive that came out of his mouth, but it was like, "No, you're kidding." I said, "No, no, no. That's my father." And I would say that within the next five minutes, I met all 60 brothers. It was amazing. Very, very excited.
0:16:57.9 Adam Girtz: That's pretty incredible. That's a heck of a recruitment story, and I can imagine having been a commander myself, I can imagine the excitement of the looks exchanged and the immediate, "Oh, yeah. Yeah." Tapping the next brother over like, "Yep, we gotta talk to this guy some more here." That's pretty neat.
0:17:18.0 Wade Catts: It was exciting. And if you think about when that painting became the painting. So it reaches Lexington, I believe it's deeded over or gifted in 1975 or '76, it's somewhere in the mid or early 70s. And I haven't had a chance to go back and check my own records on that, but it wouldn't have been like everybody had it, but I don't think everybody really recognized that it now belonged to the National Chapter. So it was just really surprising for me to be 600 miles from home, turn the corner, and there is my father's painting, which is the painting we had hanging in our house too. So we had a copy of that hand wall in the studio that my father had.
0:18:03.4 Wade Catts: So it was very common for me to see, but it was very exciting to see it like, "Wow. Here it is. Here it is on the wall." So that was my exposure to the Sigma Nu brothers, and they were far nd away the best bunch of guys I think I ever worked with. I enjoyed being out there, my pledge class was fantastic. I really liked being out there. I was only at Ball State for about two years, and then I transferred back to the University of Delaware.
0:18:35.0 Wade Catts: But the experience that I saw here was not the same at all that I saw when I was at Ball State. So I really enjoyed the years that I was working with the Ball State chapter and with Theta Nu. So I was glad to be out there.
0:18:50.8 Adam Girtz: That's really neat. It must... I know like you said, your father kind of nudged you in that direction, but kind of allowed you to make your own choice there, but must have been a neat experience kind of a feeling of home away from home. And then I would assume that it really became that truly with the experience then.
0:19:15.9 Wade Catts: Yeah. And when you're a 18 year old kid and your father says, "You should join a fraternity." You go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. I don't know, I'll pick which one I want," right? So I got out there and I'm going through all those going, eh, maybe, no, don't really like that one. And then the Sigma Nu house was just amazing. And just the camaraderie and the friendship of the brothers was really astounding and very nice. And as you say, home away from home, it was really, really nice to have.
0:19:40.9 Wade Catts: I will say too, that my father went in the house when we went out in the summertime. So before I went to the school, there was an orientation that I think was in the summer. And I believe we did drive over to the house and he went in and talked to the brothers, but it was summer. So there weren't a whole lot of people on campus probably at the time that he was there. I did not go in with him at that time. So who knows, maybe he said, watch out, my son is coming, make sure you get him. I don't know what they were thinking, but something like that. But I do remember that he had at least been in the house and talked to people in the house.
0:20:20.5 Adam Girtz: Well, that's really neat.
0:20:21.9 Christopher Brenton: That's very cool.
0:20:24.6 Adam Girtz: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, what a great kind of origin story for joining the chapter.
0:20:29.0 Wade Catts: Yeah, it's kind of... And then I will say also that since that time I have been over the last... This year in particular, but other years, I have been invited to the Delta Kappa events in the winter time. They usually have like a Christmas or a December dinner and so... Or a Luncheon, and I have been trying to get to those and this season I actually went to one. So I would also suggest that if you really want other stories about the origin of the painting and my father's role, there are still brothers around that know him, or alumnus that come to that event. And so you would get a chance to catch them before they are perhaps not around anymore.
0:21:18.2 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, absolutely. No, that's a really good point. And too, now that, again, as I mentioned, we're restoring our Delta Kappa chapter, many more opportunities as well to connect with those guys. I think the excitement and reinvigoration of energy around the chapter is something exciting and worth talking to them about as well.
0:21:40.6 Wade Catts: Yes, I agree, and I would be happy to, and I mentioned to them that if there's anything I can do to assist, I'll be happy to do that.
0:21:49.8 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. Well, Wade, before we kind of get into a little bit more about the painting, not to transition away from you too quickly, just wanted to also acknowledge your profession. So you're a registered professional archaeologist and a historian. And so I think it's also kind of neat to bring that perspective into this conversation, as you already mentioned, of just kind of having a sense of the historical importance of all of this. And I just think that's really cool. Can you share a little bit more about your professional experience and career, what you do on a daily basis?
0:22:33.7 Wade Catts: So my career as a registered professional archaeologist is about as close to a certification or a licensure that archaeologists in the United States have. I have a graduate degree in American history and an undergraduate degree in anthropology and history, and I have used those both, all of those over my career to be doing cultural resource management, archaeology, historic preservation work, historical archaeology, and working in a variety of places. I'm my own company right now. So I'm a sole proprietor, literally myself and my four-legged dog who handles the security.
0:23:16.1 Wade Catts: So you might hear him at some point in the conversation. I hope not. I hope he'll keep his mouth shut, but he may not. And the kind of work that I do, I work on projects that are archaeological projects throughout the country. So I, 23 years I worked for a firm that was based in Westchester, Pennsylvania that we did projects up and down the eastern seaboard and we had offices in a number of different states.
0:23:48.0 Wade Catts: I've done, highway projects and pipelines, wind farms, transmission lines, but also major archaeological excavations, excavations at a site here in Delaware that was a 17th century Dutch fortification in the town of Newcastle, which is the kind of the founding space of Newcastle in terms of European arrival and in this area along the Delaware River. This was a Swedish and Dutch and then later English fortification, 1650s, 1660s. I'm working right now on a project over in New Jersey at another fortification on the Delaware River where we uncovered the remains of 15 Hessian soldiers last summer that were buried in the Fort Ditch during a battle in the American Revolution. And these are the human remains of those soldiers that were rather unceremoniously thrown in the bottom of the ditch at the end of the battle.
0:24:50.9 Wade Catts: So here's an opportunity for us to one, kind of bring closure to the lives of these individuals and recognize them for the humanity that they were. And at the same time learn something about who they were. So we have the ability to do digital facial reconstruction on some of these. We're going to try to do some DNA.
0:25:12.6 Wade Catts: We've recovered the artifacts that go with them, so we're analyzing those as well. But on a daily basis, so I'm actually now an adjunct professor at Rowan University through that work. Rowan is in Southern New Jersey. But my work varies considerably. I do a lot of federal regulatory work. So if it's a... If you see highways built or things in your area that if they use, if it's federally licensed, permitted or funded, it generally has an archeology component under the National Historic Preservation Act. And we follow the guidance of that act to try to recover any of the significant historical or archeological resources, identify them and if possible avoid them. If you can't avoid them, you try to limit the damage that will be there. And if you can't do that, then you have to excavate them completely and get them out of the way.
0:26:15.5 Adam Girtz: Oh, that's so interesting. And I think that's something that, I guess people don't really think about, right? Like they see a highway going in, they just assume, yep, maybe they had to move some houses or relocate some people and whatnot. But I don't think the general population thinks about the people that were there before the houses were there, right? And the artifacts that might be there. And Wade, correct me if I'm wrong, but so Hessian soldiers, that would have been mercenaries then at that point. Maybe that's not the correct term, but they would have been soldiers on one side or another.
0:26:53.7 Wade Catts: Well, they were German soldiers, yes. And they are German soldiers who were serving in a professional army. So the Hessian army was actually a professional army. And the...
0:27:05.6 Adam Girtz: Interesting.
0:27:06.0 Wade Catts: Landgraviate of Hesse-Cassel, who is the ruler at that time, he basically, what, rents his army to the King of England and says, you can use these soldiers. And England had done this before, and this was actually not unusual for much of Europe to do this. You would actually find... So the definition of mercenary as we apply it today isn't exactly what this is. These are not soldiers of fortune. These are not individual soldiers for hire. You're hiring an entire army. So 30,000...
0:27:46.7 Adam Girtz: Interesting.
0:27:46.9 Wade Catts: Hessian soldiers or 30,000 Hessian but also six other principalities sent soldiers to fight in the American Revolution.
0:27:56.8 Adam Girtz: Ah, better make sure you pay up at the end of that, might end up like Vatican City and have some angry soldiers there.
0:28:05.6 Wade Catts: Well, they were paid well, and they were paid monthly, so they're paid to... They are a professional army, and their officer corps is a professional force as well. So that's actually one of the things we hope to learn more about as we do this project, really figure out who these individuals are, what are the effects of this battle on the communities that they came from. And so imagine that this battle was the worst disaster for Hessian forces in the American Revolution. The casualty rate was about 25 or 28% of the assault force and the assault force was about 1,400 men.
0:28:52.4 Adam Girtz: Wow. Well, and not to drag us away from the main topic, but that's very, very interesting and really neat to hear kind of your perspective, especially in, like you said, putting them to rest and acknowledging and just having that recognition of who they were and where they came from and they traveled so far away from home and stayed here, unfortunately, but very, very neat.
0:29:20.9 Adam Girtz: Well, Wade, let's dive in and talk about A Serpent, A Rose, And A Star. So, I guess for those who aren't familiar, your father, Elmer Paul Catts, painted this painting. And for a lot of Sigma Nu members, and I'm including myself in this, that's largely where the knowledge on the painting probably ends. So I would love if you would be able to give us just a brief overview of the history of the painting, and how and when your father decided to paint this? That would be a great place to start.
0:30:03.3 Wade Catts: Sure. So the painting predates me. So I'm born in 1959 and he did that... He graduated from Delaware in 1952. So I believe he paints that in like 1951, '52. And I can recall a conversation that I had with him where he said that he recognized that there was no kind of an allegory, if you will, an allegorical image of the meaning and symbology, if you will, of Sigma Nu. And so I think that's what he said he set out to do. And I recall, and I was young when we had this conversation, but I seem to remember that he said, he talked to a couple of his fraternity brothers about this, and they all thought that might be a good thing to do.
0:30:50.7 Wade Catts: And my father was a amazing artist in terms of working on imagery. He did... He was largely self-taught. So a lot of what you see there would have been early in his painting and figure career. But I mentioned my uncle, one of my uncles, John Catts, or he went by Jack, he was a Sigma Nu. The two of them grew up in a room in their home in Cranford, New Jersey. And while I never saw this, I understand that there were murals on the wall that my father painted in their room.
0:31:29.7 Wade Catts: One was from the last of the Mohicans and one was from Moby Dick, if I recall, I think that's the two, but he would have done these kinds of things where he just got it in his head to do an illustration like this. So he was fully capable of doing this. I think I have seen images of his yearbook in high school that he did illustrations for his yearbook, he was very, very talented as an artist. And so the idea that he could even do this painting, I think, says a lot about what, level of confidence, perhaps, in 1952 that he thought he could do this.
0:32:06.9 Wade Catts: What I can tell you is I did remember I've seen that painting when it was hanging in the Delta Kappa chapter house. I do remember seeing it there before it went down to Lexington. And as I said, we had a copy of it hanging on our wall at home. And I had occasional conversations with him as a young boy growing up about what was in the painting and what did I see. Mostly what I remember is him telling me that those two uncles, I believe, are in the painting.
0:32:41.6 Adam Girtz: Oh, awesome. So the faces are familiar faces maybe to you and to him?
0:32:50.8 Wade Catts: At least one of them I'm positive is my uncle, his brother. The other one might very well be, and I apologize I don't have it in front of me right here, but I would think that one of them may actually be my other uncle. Now that I think that through, that both of them were already members of the fraternity, he may very well have been using the two of them to illustrate. And I know, I'm almost sure that he used a man named Joe Lank as one of the models, and Joe was also a fraternity brother.
0:33:25.2 Adam Girtz: Oh, that's so cool. That's so neat. What a great little piece of history in that. I'm smiling ear to ear. I don't know if you could... I know I know we had to mess around with video settings, you might not be able to see me.
0:33:40.5 Wade Catts: No, that's okay.
0:33:42.3 Adam Girtz: But this is really neat, so then the painting itself so you said he painted it in 1952, correct?
0:33:50.8 Wade Catts: I'm pretty sure it's '51 or '52. He would have graduated in the you know summer of '52 probably I'd like to say that he gave me some statement about I got the idea to do it over that period of time. It's probably done and finished in those days, certainly it's done by '52. And I would think it would have been... It may have been hanging in the chapter house maybe a year before that, but that's probably about it.
0:34:18.5 Adam Girtz: Okay. And so he painted it while he was there at the house or.
0:34:22.4 Wade Catts: Yes.
0:34:22.7 Adam Girtz: Okay, so he did paint it at the fraternity house.
0:34:25.9 Wade Catts: While I'm saying that he's largely self-taught, he was certainly doing figure study classes and art classes, I'm sure, at Delaware because our house was full of original artwork that he had done, a lot of which were figure studies and things. No figure studies that I've ever seen of this painting, but I think it might have been Todd who said he thought you had some additional drawings, and maybe those drawings are for this painting. I don't know if that's true.
0:34:53.5 Adam Girtz: Interesting, yeah, I know we have a lot of archival material down in the basement at headquarters and we are... There are plans in the works for a more advanced archive that we're able to protect and you keep a lot of those artifacts. So I'm sure as we start excavating those out of the basement, if we come across those, we'll be sure to share them with you. That's very neat. Well, it sounds like your father was kind of a natural born talent, then tempered by practice, given that he was painting at such a young age there. Would love to see those murals. I'm sure that that's probably lost to history, but that sounds really neat.
0:35:45.0 Wade Catts: Well, I can tell you that he would illustrate books. So I have... I don't know if you've ever heard of the book series, Bomba, the Jungle Boy. You'd have to go back into probably, consider when he was a boy, he was born in 1930. So these would have come out in the '30s and '40s probably. And maybe even, yeah, probably '30s and '40s. He would take a book that had just blank pages and then draw a chapter illustration to go with it on the page of the book. So if the chapter title, whatever the chapter title is, he would do a little drawing of whatever that chapter title was. And he would do his own little drawings in the books themselves, which I found was fascinating. I've got a couple of these and he was also very tongue in cheek with things. So sometimes he would make stuff up, like he drew, I think Tarzan was on one page, right? So he drew a picture of Tarzan and he had steel arms and iron legs and everything. And then Bomba had rubber arms and rubber legs, just to kind of make the distinction between the two characters, that Bomba was a young boy, whereas Tarzan was made of steel sort of thing. So he could often use his humor as he did these things. It was kind of fun to see.
0:37:01.0 Adam Girtz: Interesting, very interesting. Well, so... So we understand then you were a young boy when your father gifted this painting to the fraternity, so today then, as you saw, as you entered the Theta Newhouse, the painting made its rounds and even before it was, became truly kind of a Sigma Nu cornerstone as far as artifacts that we have. And today, the painting is widely beloved by tens of thousands of brothers. So did you feel that weight when you were a Theta Nu chapter member, or did that come later?
0:37:45.2 Wade Catts: I knew that it was a significant painting when I'm walking in the house and see it already hanging on the wall, right?
0:37:49.9 Adam Girtz: Of course, yeah.
0:37:53.3 Wade Catts: I was like, wow, they have a copy of this painting. I never really made that connection before. Well, I also was there the day that the painting was gifted to Sigma Nu, and that was a ceremony that was on the grounds of VMI, out on the front of VMI. So I remember attending that and kind of being there when all of that happened. And again, I thought I had the right date on that. I'm seeing like 1976, but that doesn't make any sense to me because I would have a better memory of it from 1976 than I do, which makes me think that it's a little bit earlier than that, but I may be wrong. I'd have to go back again and see what the dates are of those various events. But we went down there. We brought that painting down. We transported it down and handed it over to the headquarters. But the big event was out on the green at the parade ground at the VMI.
0:38:52.8 Christopher Brenton: That's awesome. And I think that I was looking up, as you were speaking, if we had any immediate record of that gifting date. And it looks like what we have captured is just what you had already shared, which is the completion date in 1952. Looks like our records show that he started painting it in the 1950s, but then completed it by the 1952, which is what you had shared. But no, I mean, that's... I think, too, like we don't even think about like the ceremonies. And we don't have a lot of public records about all of those events taking place. And that is exciting unto itself, which is cool.
0:39:38.1 Wade Catts: Yeah, and I think the house, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I felt like the house was relatively new in 19... Whenever that painting was turned over, because I remember being at the house and it was... It might've been a new location, that I don't know. I was there, the headquarters house.
0:40:04.6 Christopher Brenton: Oh, the headquarters. Okay. Yeah. Well, because in the late 1950s is when the fraternity had first kind of transitioned. And then in 1969 is when we add or completed the addition of the new wings on the side of the building that kind of allows for it to be the physical space that it is today or it kind of has the impression that people would have of it today is I think post 1969. Do you remember if the wings were on the building at that time?
0:40:40.8 Wade Catts: They were on the building and we had been to VMI at least once before that. So I would not be at all surprised. Now you're going back into when I was probably 10 or 11. I remember we went to VMI and went, and I'm positive we probably went to the house too, because we would have been, you know, if we're coming through the town, my father would have gone over to see the house. And '69 would be about the time we do it. I wouldn't be... He might very well have decided to come and visit because the wings had just been put on the house.
0:41:14.7 Adam Girtz: Yeah, great time, a great time to visit headquarters.
0:41:18.9 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, well, and it could have been a part of like a centennial gift to the organization as well. because that would have been right in line with the fraternity's centennial.
0:41:26.4 Adam Girtz: Interesting.
0:41:30.3 Christopher Brenton: So Wade, you've already kind of referenced this a little bit with kind of sharing that your brothers, or not your brothers, sorry, your uncles are in the the portrait or at least kind of could have been kind of the models for the figures that are ultimately depicted.
0:41:45.3 Adam Girtz: You're technically brothers too, right?
0:41:48.0 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, that is true. But when we think about the painting, Adam and I have had the chance to facilitate tours of the headquarters multiple times. And every single time we lead a tour into the museum, we're inevitably asked about the lore and the mythology of the painting. And I'm curious, were there any other conversations that came up with your father about what he was hoping to capture or to convey with the painting or any other details that you can remember that may not necessarily be known to the average author?
0:42:27.4 Wade Catts: I wish I had more of that, I don't. We didn't have... There were not a lot of chances in the 1980s for me to have a conversation with him about this and he passed away in 1996. So I know that the painting... He had certain elements of that painting that he wanted to make sure were in there, and those are the ones that I think everybody is fairly capable of reading and seeing. Certainly the progression and movement from profane to celestial is in there, and how you make that move. And if you think about how he would put a painting together at that time, you can kind of see the composition, the elements of the composition to it.
0:43:15.0 Wade Catts: I recall that we talked a little bit about that because it was probably something that he wanted me to understand how you can put a painting together and what elements go where, how your eye looks at a painting and where it goes, right? So you follow the movement of figures and things as they move you from bottom to top or side to side, that kind of a thing. I never heard a good statement about who the young women were in the painting and whether he actually knew any of those girls.
0:43:43.7 Wade Catts: He might have known those girls, I have no idea. So what, sweetheart, mother and sister who are standing in the background kind of a thing. So I would not be at all surprised if just like he had people do faces for him, he might have had some figure studies that were part of that as well.
0:44:04.9 Adam Girtz: Oh, that's so incredible. And just so neat to kind of get some of that history. And hearing what you've said about your father, it strikes me that he wouldn't have put anything in there on a whim or on accident, right? It's, I think, readily apparent to anybody looking at the painting that, you know, every piece of it has some kind of meaning, whether that's known to the public, known to brothers, or known to just your father himself, each piece really seems to hold some kind of meaning. And I think, too, one of the things that I've thought about in my consideration of the painting is that each of those things may mean something different to each brother and to each chapter. And I think that's part of the beauty of it because I'm thinking back to when I was... I joined as a sophomore in my candidate semester. I remember our chapter had an older brother of the chapter, a senior that year that came in and shared with us some of the history and gave us the lead session on history of Sigma Nu and that painting was a big component of it. We had a copy of it hanging in our house as well. So I remember some of the things that my older fraternity brother shared with me as far as... And I took for fact what said some of the meaning of the things were.
0:45:46.1 Adam Girtz: And while that might not be exactly what your father intended or was his fact, I think that's part of the beauty of it, right? Is it takes on its own meaning. And I think that's where kind of a mythological artifact for a fraternity like ours, I think that's good. I think that's a good piece of the painting is the fact that it can take on that meaning for each individual brother.
0:46:15.5 Wade Catts: I think you're right. The thing that I am struck by with my father's work on this is that it was very clear that the values and the importance of Sigma Nu to him and in his life was something he wanted to put on Canvas. And he did that. And so you're absolutely right that there's nothing in that painting that didn't mean something to him as to why he did it the way he did it. And obviously, anybody who looks at a piece of art can have some of the obvious things that come through, right? What individual figures are supposed to represent and those kind of things. But you're going to bring to you that painting your own interpretation of what you're looking at. And so while I'm positive that, I mean, I always thought about this, that my dad did a lot of artwork for other things later on.
0:47:07.5 Wade Catts: He did a lot of natural animal things and these kind of things. He did covers for the Delaware Conservationist and all kinds of other pieces. But this piece is, in my way of thinking about his work, the different one. This one has allegorical meaning, deep intellectual meaning to him. And so it's not like the ones that are done to be instructional or teach somebody something. There was a purpose behind this painting and why he felt that it was important to do and the fact that he realized that no such thing existed anywhere in the fraternity, certainly not at Delta Kappa, but obviously throughout the rest of the fraternity. And he wanted to put that to create something like that, that showed a lot of the symbolism and the importance of Sigma Nu in his life. So I've always felt that this... Of all his works, this one is a little different than the others that he's done.
0:48:11.7 Adam Girtz: I love it. Well, Christopher had shared with me a segment of text that we have as a description. And Christopher, did you pull this from our website or from the museum? Okay, from the website. And in that, one thing that struck me as I was reading it was that each knight pictured in the painting is carrying a different weapon symbolizing the varied talents that each brother brings to the fraternity. And I think that's... It's a great message. And to your father, thank him for sharing his talents with us. His weapon may be a paintbrush. And Wade, thank you for sharing, in this case, your story with us and giving us a perspective into that, very much appreciate you spending some time with us here on that and sharing that with us.
0:49:14.7 Wade Catts: My pleasure Adam and Christopher, thanks for having me. It was a pleasure.
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0:49:45.6 Adam Girtz: All right, and welcome back listeners. Thank you all for going on that journey with us. A really cool interview. Again, I just really loved being able to spend some time with Wade Catts and hear about his father and his experience. And, Christopher, up top you said, you know, history is really just individual humans living their individual lives and something that struck me during the interview was just hearing that some of the subjects in the painting are modeled off of Elmer Paul Catts' brothers and familial relatives, right? That is just so cool to know that and to know that like it makes me think about him sitting and painting this work of art and doing some of that modeling, just thinking about what did his chapter brothers think about being featured in this painting? Did they know that this was going to become this central artifact of the fraternity, right? That's just such a neat thing. They were just going about their lives just as Elmer was as well. So that's just... I don't know, it makes me smile. It's very cool.
0:51:10.7 Christopher Brenton: Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, I mean, just the opportunity to hear him talk about his father and the process of creating this painting. Yeah, I also think that's just cool. I mean, you think back to the early days of the fraternity's history, the father and son, the first father and son legacies. I just think it's really cool how legacy and family connection is such an ingrained part of the fraternities or what makes fraternities in general special. And so here you have another one. They didn't end up attending the same chapter, but they still had their own really powerful Sigma Nu experiences. And I don't know, it's just very cool to kind of come full circle and be able to have this conversation. I'm glad that we had the chance to do it.
0:52:07.2 Adam Girtz: In the tapestry of fraternity, each member is but a thread. Don't look at me like that.
0:52:14.5 Christopher Brenton: Yes exactly.
0:52:16.2 Adam Girtz: Don't look at me like that. Speaking of legacy, our 70th Grand Chapter is coming up and what a great celebration of our legacy and what better place to celebrate it than Fort Lauderdale, Florida, right?
0:52:32.1 Christopher Brenton: Yeah. Well, so this will be our... This is our last reminder for our listeners because probably, once this episode goes live, it's only going to be a few days until our registration deadline hits. That is actually taking place on May 19th. So if you were hearing this episode after May 19th, it is past the deadline. However, there is always opportunities, always the worst we could say is no. So if you are interested in attending, please do reach out as long as it's not past June or sorry, July 2nd, when the event is actually concluded. But there are going to be a number of events, regardless of whether you are a chapter or an alumni chapter representative where you actually have a voting or you have a vote on the Grand Chapter floor. There are still a number of... Sorry, of events that are going to be open to non-legislative attendees.
0:53:30.5 Christopher Brenton: So we're going to have an alumni, an area alumni reception, we're going to have a Grand Chapter live auction for sold for Sigma Nu. So if you are interested in any of those events, you should be getting emails about them in the read up to the event. Strongly encourage you to attend Grand Chapter, it's an amazing event and opportunity to connect with your fellow brothers. But do reach out to the parties that be. I believe it's gc.info@sigmanu.org, where you can ask questions to our staff team about anything related to Grand Chapter. And then of course, sigmanu.org/grandchapter is going to take you to the registration page as well as the FAQ.
0:54:10.7 Christopher Brenton: So if you've already registered, you're looking for information, that's where you're going to go. If you have not yet registered, but are looking to do so, you also need to go to that page. And then of course, gc.info@sigmanu.org is where you can send your questions to get a team member to respond.
0:54:26.8 Adam Girtz: Yeah, absolutely. Well, looking forward to seeing you all there and we'll be there. And like I mentioned earlier on this year, I do plan on recording some field interviews there and very excited to bring some of those stories to our podcast and record them for history. We're on a mission, Christopher, to record all of the fraternity's history piece by piece via audio. And while we're doing that, I do want to thank all of our listeners for coming on this journey with us. It's been really an incredible experience to be able to do this and to interview the people that we have and to share the stories that we have. And I want to show some appreciation to our listeners.
0:55:23.1 Adam Girtz: I was just checking out our hosting platform last week and we did just hit 3,000 downloads. So I just want to say from me and Christopher and Drew and everyone that's helped put together this podcast. Thank you so much for listening to the show and continuing to justify our existence and our efforts in the show. It is really validating, especially when I'm able to hear from alumni and active members at events that we have, like at College of Chapters, just hearing that you enjoy the show and that you're out there listening.
0:56:04.2 Adam Girtz: It's very exciting to me and really brings me a lot of joy to hear that. So thank you all for listening and as always, if you enjoy the show, the best thing you can do is share it with a brother. Just let a brother know that the show exists and that there's an episode that might interest him. So thank you all again for listening. We'll talk to you next time.
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